mheath0429 wrote:

Ericobeasto wrote:

I also didnt like how for full registration its only 600.

I'm paying 1200 for a full registration dog...because the high price tag means you having breeding rights - but even that is on a co-own for me so that the breeder can monitor what I'm doing. In this case it's to make sure I'm not studding the dog out before testing to just random people.

Ya that sounds like a correct price. It just makes it easy for someone who buys one of a dog with a cheap full reg. to start BYB and say hey look i got a AKC litter! And then. A new BYB is born.

MayaDog wrote:

Is a breeder who has 10-15 outdoor dogs in there huge back yard with a 3walled and roofed enclosure for their kennels, sufficient exercise a temperature controlled birthing/first few weeks area for new pups, socializes pups with other dogs/children to some extent, has a local vet who is a member of the family who does all their vet stuff, tests their dogs for hips/eyes, been breeding for 20+ years and brings in studs and new females pups to keep good lines but does about one litter a month offering nothing but a 2buis day health guarantee really that bad? They are a BYB, a decent one, one many would trust, but no they are not nearly as good as the breeders you all say should be the only ones to trust.

Regarding the bold: A regular vet can not certify clear eyes and hips. It takes a board certified ophthalmologist for the eyes and board certified radiologists for the hips. In other words, it takes special training beyond what it learned in vet school. So unless this family member is board certified in two different specialties, which is highly unlikely for a local vet, this basically means nothing.

Koda wrote:

Clm wrote:

also a big turn off to me is the design of their website, it's very unprofessional... reminds me of one of my 4 year old niece's drawings sitting on the fridge. but that's just more of a pet peeve of my own, rather than a red flag.

Just my personal preference as well, but the website makes me want to puke. It's SO busy it's distracting and the level of professionalism is sad. I agree with what you said.

I also don't like that the first sentence of every paragraph seems to be about money. It seems to be a reflection of what is most important...

Agreed.

Additional red flags to me are the following:
- incomprehensible grammar rife with misspelling
- shouting (using all capital letters)
- using exclamation points at the end of most sentences.

These are the same criteria I use to consider or ignore a post.

Michael, I like your logic.

Quote :

Ya that sounds like a correct price. It just makes it easy for someone who buys one of a dog with a cheap full reg. to start BYB and say hey look i got a AKC litter! And then. A new BYB is born.

And this is why I got Karli spayed as soon as I could. Because even though she's AKC registered, there doesn't appear to have been any testing in the last three generations or any dogs having been shown. And I couldn't under a good conscience even take that chance. She could end up with serious issues and that's on me. But I would never put that on someone else and that's what BYBs and puppy mills do when they breed. An ethical breeder will usually sell a "pet" puppy at a lower price then one of thier show dogs because the dog is not show quality. And I bet that an ethical breeder will be willing to work with someone who may not be able to pay full price right up front (if they aren't in it for the money, they probably wouldn't see an issue with a payment plan.) Puppies end up in shelters because BYBs and puppy mills don't do the proper screening. I wasn't screened for my puppy. He didn't even ask if I had a backyard for her or not. An ethical breeder looks for the right family for thier pups not just anyone who wants one. Hindsight is 20/20 but I don't regret getting Karli. She is an amazing dog, but I will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop, for something to happen because I don't know what's in her genetics.

cinnamonbits wrote:

Ericobeasto wrote:

Ya that sounds like a correct price. It just makes it easy for someone who buys one of a dog with a cheap full reg. to start BYB and say hey look i got a AKC litter! And then. A new BYB is born.

And this is why I got Karli spayed as soon as I could. Because even though she's AKC registered, there doesn't appear to have been any testing in the last three generations or any dogs having been shown. And I couldn't under a good conscience even take that chance.

I also think the point Eric is making is that there are a lot of people who don't have that good conscience. I also got Yuki from a similar breeder, $500 for full registration and breeding rights. However I spayed her because she wasn't breeding quality. Thinking of all the un-educated people in the world, and people who just don't care, there are way too many who wouldnt think/care about if the dog came from good lines and just think 'I have a husky, all I need to do is find another husky and BOOM I've got puppies'. And they do, I think thats where a lot of these 1-2 litter breeders come from. I looked up Link's breeder and it seems he came from this type as well, he was the second litter and they only had one male, one female. No signs of health testing had been done, and Link was not neutered and did not have a contract to be neutered. Which could've given birth to yet another one of these 1-2 litter backyard breeders. It's an endless cycle simply because people can.

Since there are people highlighting how healthy their dogs are (now) and some people even say it's okay to purchase from a BYB instead of going to a responsible, ethical breeder...let me talk from the other side of the stream as someone who was not blessed with a healthy puppy from a BYB.

Bella is from the Amish. She was free to us because they wanted to put her sleep because she had a heart murmur. They can't sell a puppy who is not healthy. We were hoping she just had a flow murmur but at 6 months old she went for an echo to see what was wrong and she was diagnosed with Subaortic stenosis which is a narrowing of her aortic valve. Your heart is a muscle - and as it pumps it strengthens - so as her heart pumps and pumps it puts more stress on the aortic valve and it will continue to narrow throughout her life. When she was a puppy it wasn't bad - it was only a grade 1-2/5 (2-3/6) but it -will- get worse.

Do you know how heartwrenching it is to not know whether or not your dog will live to see her first or second birthday? Even now - she might not see her third or fourth. I'm hoping she makes it to her fifth. I do not know in all honesty how long I have with my precious girl - not because I know that in 10 years she will die anyway but because she's mostly healthy but because she was born with a condition that could have easily been avoided, has no cure for, and -will- get worse.

Lets talk cost. I got her for free - hell, I even got her registration papers and had FULL registration. Within three months of owning her I had wracked up a couple thousand dollars in vet bills (not even related to her heart and excluding all her normal puppy stuff). The first year excluding that couple thousand? Another thousand because she has to see a cardiologist plus the few hundred that is already a given for the puppy series. Her second year? another 1500 between her spay, echo's, emergency vet appointment, her abscess she had etc. I'm also guaranteed to spend at least 600-800 alone every year in echo's for her (TWO echos.).

Sure, she's from the one of the worst of the worst in terms of BYB and until it happens to you (general), there are many people who will defend the BYB's but the moment they get that sick puppy and they are powerless to do anything for them (like me) except give them the best life they can - there's nothing that will change their mind because they don't have to deal with the heartache.

All this brings to mind a simple, but very true old adage; "You get what you pay for." I hear/see lots of people saying, "I can't afford one of those puppies from an ethical breeder," and "all I want is a healthy puppy."

Person after person on this forum has shared their personal experience, heart-wrenching stories, and costs of owning a pet from a BYB or Puppy Mill. In many of those cases, the original cost of the puppy would have been cheap compared to the vet bills they are paying on their pup. So how can you afford not to purchase from an ethical breeder? If all you want is a healthy pet, many breeders offer pets at a reduced cost from show/breeder quality dogs. In many cases, this doesn't even mean that you end up with dog that isn't show quality.

If you still can't convince yourself to purchase from an ethical breeder, then by all means consider adopting a puppy from a rescue or dog/cat shelter. Our Border collie is a rescue from a dog/cat shelter. He is a purebred Border collie (of course we don't have any papers for him), but that wasn't the point, we wanted a healthy pet and he has been just that. We got him as a 3 month old puppy, so no issues from being in a shelter and we've had minimal health issues with him. Getting a rescue doesn't always mean getting health issues or socialization issues.

The argument that there are plenty of good breeders out there who are only missing one or two of the requirements listed by this forum doesn't hold water. All those requirements are extremely important and are listed for a reason. Even those that seem to be of little importance are significant. Take the placement/follow-up as an example. If a breeder isn't keeping up with puppies they have produced then they really have very little basis to judge the quality of their breeding program and the results of that particular cross. Very few breeders have the space or the ability to keep the majority of puppies that they produce, so they keep only a few very special individuals. If the breeder can't keep up with the puppies, then they have no real basis to say whether or not they are truly "improving the breed," be it for show or for work.

Even those very simple requirements like proper placements and following up with puppies as they age and grow are listed for very real reasons. Ignoring one or two so you can get that "healthy" puppy for a more affordable price is simply supporting the down grade/decline of the breed we all love. So long as people are willing to buy from these types of unethical breeders, they will continue to be around and the breed will continue to decline as a result.

[quote="cinnamonbits"]

Quote :

I wasn't screened for my puppy. He didn't even ask if I had a backyard for her or not. An ethical breeder looks for the right family for thier pups not just anyone who wants one. Hindsight is 20/20 but I don't regret getting Karli. She is an amazing dog, but I will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop, for something to happen because I don't know what's in her genetics.

I know exactly what you are saying.

I also purchased Shaqua from a "puppy mill". I was only 17 at the time and the breeder seemed nice enough. I didn't know any better to look further into it. I've still been blessed with a wonderful husky who is turning 11 years old in 10 days, and still acts like a puppy. She has never had any medical problems.

*HOWEVER* my next puppy will definitely be from a reputable breeder. I look back and feel bad for supporting such a terrible breeder... (I purchased her from Marsha Cox, who made the list of the "Dirty Dozen", some of the worst puppy mills in the country Link to article HERE)

I will NEVER regret purchasing Shaqua. I have been blessed with a wonderful dog who has been in perfect health with a perfect personality for my lifestyle. I couldn't ask for a better dog. My only regret is that I actually gave her money, so that means I helped support her continuing her illegitimate and hurtful business...

Nicole, there are quite a few of us here who had similar experiences with their first puppies. Ghost came from a BYB. Like you, I don't regret getting her one bit, but I feel bad that I was duped by what I thought (in my limited knowledge) was a decent breeder. I hate that I gave him money and encouraged his practices.

The important thing for us to do is learn from the past, not be ashamed but don't repeat the mistake, and when a new person comes up here educate them