^Well they clearly lied when they said the litter was championed sired. The sire has no CH according to that pedigree! lol. Oh the things people will say to sell puppies. It's a shame.

Anywho, as for a OP's new puppy, if you really want to get into agility and obedience, take the puppy to a good puppy class. Look for a kennel club nearby or private trainer who provides obedience classes and take a few after the puppy class is over. You can start teaching some agility concepts to a puppy, just keep the bars of the jumps on the ground and have the equipment set very, very low. I'll have to look for the videos, but I have some of Elara learning agility as a puppy and it shows the special equipment the trainer has for puppies. Basically before she's fully grown, you want to start her on the concepts of agility and she needs to know basic obedience. She'll need to know "stay" or "wait," a release command, go out, "watch me," you can work on "spot" at the bottom of a contact as a puppy too, and most important recall!

I suppose I should put a conclusion on this.

Picked my pup up from the breeder last week, both parents are fully registered. Waiting for the paperwork to be mailed to me for MY puppy. I got a 30 day health guarantee, health record, spay/nueter contract, a bag of food (crappy stuff, but at least they tried), a toy, a collar, a printed newborn picture, and tips on owning a Sibe. He also requested that if I can't keep the dog for whatever reason, that it go back to him instead of the pound (typical good standing request).

Got her home, noticed she had greenish stuff clinging to the hairs on her vulva. I cleaned her up, trimmed the hairs, and checked later to see if it came back. It did. Called the breeder back, and he talked me through a bunch of things and gave me some tips for until I could get her in to see the vet. He also said he would pay for the vet bill if something was wrong.
Lo and behold, UTI and Vaginitis. I sent him a picture of the bill, and he gave me the option of sending a check in the mail, or cancelling the spay contract. (I ended up declining to pay the extra $200 for breeding rights and opted for the spay contract). I accepted his offer of dropping the spay contract in lieu of paying the bill for me.

So currently I am just waiting on my registration papers... which may be a while because apparently the AKC kicked his litter application back because they wouldn't recognize his IP or computer or something. Which sounds slightly fishy to me, but then again the AKC site declined my main debit card for no apparent reason a few weeks ago and I had to use a credit card instead. *shrug*

May I ask why you opted for the cancellation of the spay/neuter portion of the contract?

goaliechick41 wrote:

I suppose I should put a conclusion on this.

Picked my pup up from the breeder last week, both parents are fully registered. Waiting for the paperwork to be mailed to me for MY puppy. I got a 30 day health guarantee, health record, spay/nueter contract, a bag of food (crappy stuff, but at least they tried), a toy, a collar, a printed newborn picture, and tips on owning a Sibe. He also requested that if I can't keep the dog for whatever reason, that it go back to him instead of the pound (typical good standing request).

Got her home, noticed she had greenish stuff clinging to the hairs on her vulva. I cleaned her up, trimmed the hairs, and checked later to see if it came back. It did. Called the breeder back, and he talked me through a bunch of things and gave me some tips for until I could get her in to see the vet. He also said he would pay for the vet bill if something was wrong.
Lo and behold, UTI and Vaginitis. I sent him a picture of the bill, and he gave me the option of sending a check in the mail, or cancelling the spay contract. (I ended up declining to pay the extra $200 for breeding rights and opted for the spay contract). I accepted his offer of dropping the spay contract in lieu of paying the bill for me.

So currently I am just waiting on my registration papers... which may be a while because apparently the AKC kicked his litter application back because they wouldn't recognize his IP or computer or something. Which sounds slightly fishy to me, but then again the AKC site declined my main debit card for no apparent reason a few weeks ago and I had to use a credit card instead. *shrug*

Well, AKC is a pretty reliable company. I'd be checking frequently to make sure the litter gets registered. If he doesn't have breeding rights, it may never get registered.

Ive read this topic and seen you guys were able to look up if some of the dogs were ever tested and the pedigree and stuff.. I dont know where to look for any of that but im curious to some of those answers.. If i can get whatever numbers or anything that is needed would someone mind letting me know what you can find for me?

Of course Eric, feel free to post. And we will provide links to what we can find

mheath0429 wrote:

Of course Eric, feel free to post. And we will provide links to what we can find

What do you need? All my papers ate at home i will post it when i get home..

Quote :

Ive read this topic and seen you guys were able to look up if some of the dogs were ever tested and the pedigree and stuff.. I dont know where to look for any of that but im curious to some of those answers.. If i can get whatever numbers or anything that is needed would someone mind letting me know what you can find for me?

Paw village is the most common.


Paw Village

There is another one people tend to use a lot but I forget the site right now.


If you know the registered names of the stud or dam you can check the lines for past breeding as well as if they have had their medical certificates.

for example:

Kortar's Katcha

On the main page you can see All the registration info a long with the owner, kennel, Country, and health Certificates.

Clicking the pedigree at the bottom will show you the lines and you can work back from there.

~Chris~

I use Paw village a lot, but It's also important to check numbers on AKC and look up CERF and OFA numbers. Sometimes, they may not be on the Pawvillage site because the breeder has to update themselves.

It's also important to look at pedigree. Not every CH dog is equal.

Here is Cato's Pawvillage information!

http://pawvillage.com/pedigree/dynprofile.asp?ID=YWOUO8HH55

Ok when i get home ill post what number i got and i will try and work off that and see if i can come up with anything... Thanks

Ok so the Sire name is "Cottrell's Frozen Tundra of Lambeau" his number is WS26676006 (09-09), the dam name is Titan's Mystifying Marlee of the Artic her number is WS38092203 (03-13).. if you guys find any information please let me know.. im gonna try but i dont know if i undertand enough about this stuff.. Thank you

goaliechick41 wrote:

I suppose I should put a conclusion on this.

Picked my pup up from the breeder last week, both parents are fully registered. Waiting for the paperwork to be mailed to me for MY puppy. I got a 30 day health guarantee, health record, spay/nueter contract, a bag of food (crappy stuff, but at least they tried), a toy, a collar, a printed newborn picture, and tips on owning a Sibe. He also requested that if I can't keep the dog for whatever reason, that it go back to him instead of the pound (typical good standing request).

Got her home, noticed she had greenish stuff clinging to the hairs on her vulva. I cleaned her up, trimmed the hairs, and checked later to see if it came back. It did. Called the breeder back, and he talked me through a bunch of things and gave me some tips for until I could get her in to see the vet. He also said he would pay for the vet bill if something was wrong.
Lo and behold, UTI and Vaginitis. I sent him a picture of the bill, and he gave me the option of sending a check in the mail, or cancelling the spay contract. (I ended up declining to pay the extra $200 for breeding rights and opted for the spay contract). I accepted his offer of dropping the spay contract in lieu of paying the bill for me.

So currently I am just waiting on my registration papers... which may be a while because apparently the AKC kicked his litter application back because they wouldn't recognize his IP or computer or something. Which sounds slightly fishy to me, but then again the AKC site declined my main debit card for no apparent reason a few weeks ago and I had to use a credit card instead. *shrug*

The litter should have been registered weeks prior to the pups being ready to go home, that sounds a bit fishy to me....Hope they aren't giving you the run around-

I'm sorry your new pup came home with some health issues. May I inquire why you opted out of the spay contract though?

Yes you may. And you may or may not agree with my reasonings, but as always, they are my own personal choices.
Having grown up in a breeding household, I do miss the process. Am I going to breed her every time she comes into heat? No. I am going to be under the illusion of producing show quality champion pups? No. Am I going to charge $1,000 a pup? No.
Am I ever actually going to breed her? I do not know.
I enjoy having the option of taking my time to see how she grows and matures, and what temperament she grows into. Then, if I am in a good position to provide proper care and veterinary care for a mother and pups, I will consider it. But only if she is a solid specimen of the breed and has a great temperment. And of course, her health tests come up clean.

We are neutering Dexter. So he will not be a reproductive option. I do not like his temperament. He's not bad to look at, but we can't get his papers, and I refuse to pass his temper on to another generation.
I swore up and down I was going to breed my little dog Lady. That was a year ago. I am taking her in this month to be spayed. It's more the freedom of choice than a drive to breed dogs. I would like to have ONE litter of puppies sometime in the next 5 years. Will it be with Ahsoka? Maybe. Maybe not. Only time and her own maturity will tell.

I posted this in another thread, and I will say it again.

The only question I have left to ask: "Is there a purpose for the breeding?" How do you know the lines are structurally sound, have low prevalence of JC or even epilepsy?

What makes his dogs good candidates for breeding? Remember, the real goal is a healthy puppy.


Breeding means you are bringing lives into the world. Remember that. Lives that have the potential to carry all kinds of genetic disease.

mheath0429 wrote:

I posted this in another thread, and I will say it again.

The only question I have left to ask: "Is there a purpose for the breeding?" How do you know the lines are structurally sound, have low prevalence of JC or even epilepsy?

What makes his dogs good candidates for breeding? Remember, the real goal is a healthy puppy.


Breeding means you are bringing lives into the world. Remember that. Lives that have the potential to carry all kinds of genetic disease.

I was just reading that thread. The purpose being an emotional and educational experience for our family. Some people choose to have babies. I would rather have puppies. But not until I am ready and have a suitable dam/sire. I hold a passion for raising and training dogs. Do I think I will be breeding high class purebred stock? No. I know where I got my pup from, and the lack of testing and the unneccesary breeding involved in the making of their parents.
Breeding dogs is like a toss of the coin. Even Grand Champion lines can pass on unseen hereditary diseases, most of which do not emerge until old age, when suddenly the dog starts falling apart at the seams. Years after you have bred multiple litters and leant him out for stud for more.
In my opinion, dogs are like children. Sure, there are plenty of dogs that shouldn't breed. But there are plenty of people that shouldn't breed either. But they still do.

In my opinion, as long as the two dogs are healthy, tested, good tempered, not way out of standard, etc.. I see no harm in having a pet quality family raised litter of puppies from them.
I am in no rush to breed, nor am I deadset on doing it. I still have a lot to learn and deal with before I even consider tackling that issue.
Like I said, the luxury of time and choice to choose.

goaliechick41 wrote:

mheath0429 wrote:

I posted this in another thread, and I will say it again.

The only question I have left to ask: "Is there a purpose for the breeding?" How do you know the lines are structurally sound, have low prevalence of JC or even epilepsy?

What makes his dogs good candidates for breeding? Remember, the real goal is a healthy puppy.


Breeding means you are bringing lives into the world. Remember that. Lives that have the potential to carry all kinds of genetic disease.

I was just reading that thread. The purpose being an emotional and educational experience for our family. Some people choose to have babies. I would rather have puppies. But not until I am ready and have a suitable dam/sire. I hold a passion for raising and training dogs. Do I think I will be breeding high class purebred stock? No. I know where I got my pup from, and the lack of testing and the unneccesary breeding involved in the making of their parents.
Breeding dogs is like a toss of the coin. Even Grand Champion lines can pass on unseen hereditary diseases, most of which do not emerge until old age, when suddenly the dog starts falling apart at the seams. Years after you have bred multiple litters and leant him out for stud for more.
In my opinion, dogs are like children. Sure, there are plenty of dogs that shouldn't breed. But there are plenty of people that shouldn't breed either. But they still do.

In my opinion, as long as the two dogs are healthy, tested, good tempered, not way out of standard, etc.. I see no harm in having a pet quality family raised litter of puppies from them.
I am in no rush to breed, nor am I deadset on doing it. I still have a lot to learn and deal with before I even consider tackling that issue.
Like I said, the luxury of time and choice to choose.

Obviously I know that lines can pass genetic disease, or I wouldn't have brought it up. Here is the difference:

If I look at my dogs lines and say "This dog has been known to pass this trait" I learn very quickly who NOT to breed him with. Even if your dog tests out, if the wrong genes get paired up, you will have a disease.

"It happens in all lines" Isn't an excuse anymore. Epilepsy wasn't in all lines. Poor breeding choices made it that way.

It shouldn't be "way out of standard" They should be standard. That is what is healthiest for the breed. Every bit of the standard is there for a reason. From eye shape (to keep out snow) to tail structure. It is there for a reason.

Humans and dogs are not the same thing. Please do not compare the two as if they are. Humans can make their own choices to have children. Dogs can't.

Breeding for 'family enlightenment' is a poor reason to breed. If there is any reason to breed it should be to preserve or better the breed. Breeding is way more that a 'toss of a coin' when you actually take the time to research your lines, know the genetic health behind the lineage, the structural faults of the dogs so you don't breed two dogs with the same fault accentuating that fault. So no, not a crap shoot, not luck of the draw, not toss of the coin. It is the careful choice, time, and education the breeder put into their dogs that keep the integrity of the breed so why would you not choose the absolute best breeding stock you can possibly get?

I'm a little confused. You got your dog from a BYB straight up. Yet you may or may not breed her. That's like pig latin. You can't say you recongnize your dog is from parents who have no health tests but say you may want to breed her. Breeding for "family learning" is why millions of "pet quality" animals get to put to sleep every year.

HuskyMom09 wrote:

Breeding for 'family enlightenment' is a poor reason to breed. If there is any reason to breed it should be to preserve or better the breed. Breeding is way more that a 'toss of a coin' when you actually take the time to research your lines, know the genetic health behind the lineage, the structural faults of the dogs so you don't breed two dogs with the same fault accentuating that fault. So no, not a crap shoot, not luck of the draw, not toss of the coin. It is the careful choice, time, and education the breeder put into their dogs that keep the integrity of the breed so why would you not choose the absolute best breeding stock you can possibly get?

This is a sore subject for me. I in no way mean to offend anyone, so if it sounds like I am, please disregard it and I appologize.

My mother was a Sheltie breeder for 20 years. She read every possible scrap of information possible, racked up hundreds and hundreds of dollars in phone bills calling and researching and questioning and planning. She was mentored by respectable area breeders. She showed. She in fact still has her Champion line Sheltie right now. One of the last 2 remaining. He came from a line of Champions and Grand Champions. His full brother was a GC. This dog was pick of the litter, but for just a smidgen too much white in his coat. He sired many litters. Both from his previous kennel, and from my mom's kennel. Lines were clean, tested clean, no history of anything at the time... He is now 100% deaf, eyesight is going, his teeth are rotting out of his mouth (there is some weird enyzme in sheltie saliva that breaks down their teeth more than other dogs apparently), and many of his sired pups (all sold as pet quality on spay/neuter contracts) are deaf and have similar problems.

What I would like to say, is that no matter HOW much research you do, things happen. Yes, you can reduce the CHANCE of bad things happening. But even full out geneticists don't completely understand how everything works. There are many factors that are still unexplainable in inheritance.

Now here is the part that may offend people:
I do NOT believe that because a dog is purebred that it is BETTER than a mixed breed dog. I do not believe that your $4,000 GC is more deserving of love or happiness or a good life than my mixed breed pekingese/poodle mix dog who came from a pet store. I believe that EVERY single dog deserves to be loved. As every child does. Regardless of who the parents are, where they came from, why they were bred. No, we don't want to support backyard breeders. But what happens to those dogs when the person that DID buy them decides to throw them away? Shelters. The pound. The street. Some people shoot dogs or drop them off somewhere and leave them. They now have to be rescued and rehabilitated. If someone responsible had bought the dog in the first place, the poor animal wouldn't have had to go through all the BS like being mistreated, thrown away, bounced around between homes, ending up in a shelter, etc..

And if dogs can't choose to breed on their own, how do we have so many accidental litters? So many stray/wild dogs? Pregnant dogs on the streets? Puppies under porches? I got the crap bit out of me keeping our PUREBRED Husky from mating with my 7.5 lbs mixed breed dog. I did NOT choose them to try to mate with each other. They chose on their own. Or rather, he chose.
I believe that breeding to "make the breed better" is a poor reason to breed. I do not support line breeding. I do not support inbreeding. I support making healthy happy dogs who go to happy healthy families and are loved for their entire life. Or working dogs bred for working purposes. I believe that breeding for the sake of breeding is wrong. Breeding for the sake of the dogs is a much better idea IMHO.

Also, I stated that I would not breed if the dog was way out of standard. There are a TON of dogs that are "out of standard" by varying degrees. If there weren't, every dog would be a GC or CH. Just because a dog's ears are a mm too tall, or their chest is a tiny bit flat...is not a disqualification in my mind. A viscous dog, a dog with epilepsy, a HUGE or gawky weirdly structured dog, a super super shy dog...those would be disqualifiers. A dog that has major faults in structure.

Sheba&Kennedy wrote:

I'm a little confused. You got your dog from a BYB straight up. Yet you may or may not breed her. That's like pig latin. You can't say you recongnize your dog is from parents who have no health tests but say you may want to breed her. Breeding for "family learning" is why millions of "pet quality" animals get to put to sleep every year.

No, irresponsible PEOPLE and uncurable illnesses are the reason pets get put to sleep every year. Every person that looks at dogs as "just dogs", oh they're not people, they're just animals. They won't even know what's going on when I drop it off at the pound.
That's like saying "Manufacturers that make guns are the reason all gun crimes are committed!" I don't buy it. Yes, there are irresponsible people breeding. No, they shouldn't be breeding, nor do I support them. Breeders that breed for money are wrong.
A family that plans a SINGLE LITTER for years as a family experience and takes the time to do it right and make sure the pups go to homes that they will stay at, and takes the pups back if the owners can't keep the dogs... I do not believe that is wrong. I believe that is a life experience. I feel it is something every person should be able to experience at least once; bringing life into this world. Be it animal or human. It is a heavy heavy burden and not to be taken lightly.

History of the genetic faults (eyes, teeth) would have been present in the grandparents of the dog, since it is a dominant gene. Therefore, the parents should have never been bred. Genetics, when you know what to look for and you know genetics and dominant and recessive traits, are NOT by chance. Their is a chance for a pup to have all recessive genes, but that is highly unlikely and rarely happens, that pup would be lucky. That's why good breeders never breed a dog that has a dominant genetic disturbance.

ETA- I will NEVER be able to run my Kale because of BYB. He has a congenital defect in his left shoulder. (And its not because of line breeding, it's because or POOR breeding) I also agree with Megan, dogs are INSTINCT driven, humans are not, we can choose. Dog can smell a female in heat for a mile, and will travel that far upon instinct, not choice.

If you can't support linebreeding - then you shouldn't be breeding. As linebreeding is and can be an essential part to ANY breeding program - just as outcrossing can be. It's also the same for saying linebreeding AND outcrossing can also be detrimental to a breed (knowingly outcrossing because your dogs are found to produce or be carriers of a defect and thus spreading the defect to the rest of the breed because every dog is a carrier of 4 or 5 defects).

It is widely recommended that if you want your children to "experience the birth of a living, breathing thing" - show them a video. As someone who was raised in a breeding home you should know what all goes into a whelp and not something most children should see or be a part of in person.

Also - since the Grand Champion program has only been around for a few years now (2010 I believe) how has your mother had Grand Champions and dogs that came from Grand Champion lines?

No one here is saying that a show dog should be loved more or taken over a pet dog or a mixed breed. So I'm not sure how that relates to any of this. I will say, however, that while I am not completely opposed to pet line breeding when done PROPERLY with EXTENSIVE amounts of research back 10+ generations into the pedigree to find out what each dog has produced (remember, no line is free of genetic defects and every dog is a carrier of 4 or 5 defects) - I don't feel that this is the proper approach to wanting to breed or getting into breeding. But that is only my opinion.

I will be mentoring under my breeder for almost year now, I will have been studying genetics and the inheritance of genetic diseases in dogs for a little under 5 months now - I haven't even touched the surface of these things. My breeding plans are 5+ years out because it very well may take that much time or longer to even begin to have a grasp on the genetics and of the pedigrees and lineages involved. That's not to mention I have to learn all about proper structure and also about temperament.

I want to track back to the standards all being for a specific purpose.

It bears to mind the Alaskan Huskies, Eurohounds, and Seppala sled dogs are better at the job that Siberians are meant to do..

It also bears to mind that non-standard, and dingo-saturated kelpies are better herding dogs.

It also bears to mind breeds like Mckenzie River Huskies, whom are amazing freight and bear dogs.

Purebred elitism isn't a frame of mind I subscribe to. In fact, working with elitist breeders wound up making me lose sleep over a few too many euthanized puppies that just weren't going to conform to breed standards. Its why I stay away from the entire purebred arena now.