They may be less common, but ethical breeders of racing line siberian do exist. Look at Karen Ramstead's dogs, she shows and races.

The German Shepherd show breeding fad (just like actually ANY breeding fad - for example EVERY brachycephalic breed.) stems from the individual interpretation of the breed standard. The GSD's are all bred for their gait - as it's the most important thing per the standard.

From the standard itself: "The gait is outreaching, elastic, seemingly without effort, smooth and rhythmic, covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps. "

The problem doesn't lie solely with the AKC allowing breeders to do this necessarily. The problem lies with judges that put up improper dogs (sometimes politics sometimes not) -I.E dogs with ill temperaments because they are put together well instead of being excused, dogs that walk on their hocks (which is the big trend because it fits the "covering the maximum amount of ground with the minimum number of steps") and the parent club(!!!!) for not policing their breeders and allowing too much emphasis on one part of the standard. Many will agree that the current show line GSDs are far from aesthetically pleasing.

But I can tell you that the same problems are in Siberians as well. People breeding HUGE siberians with tons of bone (think malamute size Siberians) and breeding dogs with very short legs with big ears. Also the head shape of the present show Siberians. (personally - the huge Siberians, short Siberians and Siberians with bat ears are far from aesthetically pleasing to me) All of which would greatly affect the way the dog works in harness and how long he would be capable to do so. The Siberian obviously isn't as bad as the GSD, Peke, Pug, Bulldog, Collies etc. but if blame should be placed at least place it appropriately on BOTH bodies. On the judges through fault of not keeping up on seminars and continuing to be retrained and the parent clubs for allowing the dogs to get where they are - as parent clubs are the ones that make the standard and enforce it and their COE's and are supposed to be the ones to police their breeders.

I understand where you're coming from and, when I say "AKC," I don't specifically mean that organization, but also those affiliated (including registered judges and breeders). The umbrella world created by the AKC's air of "prestige" is out of control; you have too many stagemom breeders out there who are trying to win through loopholes, and as a result, are actually destroying the entire point of the AKC. The AKC was formed to preserve the purity of the thoroughbred species, but the breeders are corrupting that purity to win. It's ridiculous.

Huskies, too. I get so many people who gawk at my husky because he's 23 inches (at the withers). "Shouldn't he be taller?" No, no he shouldn't. He's a Siberian Husky, not a Malamute. But that understanding isn't present, because Americans think of huskies as these huge, powerful dogs, when they're really not. I don't even understand why breeders would try to make them larger since AKC docks points over 23 inches. Perhaps because Americans are obsessed with big dogs? But why you'd want a hyper, destructive, high prey-drive dog that's the size of a St. Bernard, I have no idea.

Fenrir wrote:

I get so many people who gawk at my husky because he's 23 inches (at the withers). "Shouldn't he be taller?" No, no he shouldn't. He's a Siberian Husky, not a Malamute. But that understanding isn't present, because Americans think of huskies as these huge, powerful dogs, when they're really not. I don't even understand why breeders would try to make them larger since AKC docks points over 23 inches. Perhaps because Americans are obsessed with big dogs? But why you'd want a hyper, destructive, high prey-drive dog that's the size of a St. Bernard, I have no idea.

And people think malamutes are suppose to be at least 90 pounds! I can't stand that either. "giant" malamutes are health risks. AKC for a malamute is 70-85 pounds . I agree with you why would one want a husky that big. I always knew a husky was never big as a malamute. I have seen some huge huskies lately.

Fenrir wrote:

The umbrella world created by the AKC's air of "prestige" is out of control; you have too many stagemom breeders out there who are trying to win through loopholes, and as a result, are actually destroying the entire point of the AKC. The AKC was formed to preserve the purity of the thoroughbred species, but the breeders are corrupting that purity to win. It's ridiculous.

Huskies, too. I get so many people who gawk at my husky because he's 23 inches (at the withers). "Shouldn't he be taller?" No, no he shouldn't. He's a Siberian Husky, not a Malamute. But that understanding isn't present, because Americans think of huskies as these huge, powerful dogs, when they're really not. I don't even understand why breeders would try to make them larger since AKC docks points over 23 inches. Perhaps because Americans are obsessed with big dogs? But why you'd want a hyper, destructive, high prey-drive dog that's the size of a St. Bernard, I have no idea.

I agree with that. I think, though, that's also where A LOT of the confusion stems from. It's like people who put so much stock on a dog having "AKC papers" and then they complain about the health problems the dog has - well I'm sorry you thought that someone keeping their dogs tied to a post or in a kennel on broken class and nails and not feeding or grooming them (or other horrible conditions) would have their puppies turn up healthy??? I think simply because the "AKC" is used as an umbrella it is also causing a lot of harm - though I do really agree with you.

(As an aside: A lady once said "I hate the AKC so much and they need to be shut down! [it was in reference to the HSUS claiming the AKC is protecting puppy mills] I have two AKC registered dogs BOTH who have tons of problems but they're registered!" To which I told her it was her fault for not using the resources available to her to find an ethical and responsible breeder. I also said that it was her fault that she felt that it was okay for the "breeders" dogs to be kept in the conditions that they were kept in and that she choose to support someone like that)

I think there is a lot or misinformation or lack of education surrounding the Alaskan Malamute/Siberian Husky ( i know in GENERAL there is but this is specific) as a breed. From just talking with people - it seems many people don't fully grasp that the Alaskan Malamute is a complete and separate breed from the Siberian and bred to do something different. In the peoples eyes they're all "snow dogs" they look very similar - really almost identical if you don't know the difference between the breeds. With so many Siberians being bred out of standard - large Siberians are considered "normal" (I too once thought Siberians were bigger because many of the Siberians we have around here are 60-80+ pounds). And with Malamutes being that size normally they just all became "Huskies".

Example: I went to the dog park the other week and again earlier this week - there is a man who brings his Siberian (adult male) and Malamute (5-6 month female puppy). Both red/whites. His Siberian is 70 pounds and I want to say stands a full 5 inches over Bella at her shoulders (she's 20.5 inches) but he's a purebred Siberian. The malamute is larger than Bella but no by very much.. When she's(the malamute) an adult his male and female will be about the same size (give or take) someone who doesn't know any better will assume them to be both Siberians.

Fenrir wrote:

Huskies, too. I get so many people who gawk at my husky because he's 23 inches (at the withers). "Shouldn't he be taller?" No, no he shouldn't. He's a Siberian Husky, not a Malamute. But that understanding isn't present, because Americans think of huskies as these huge, powerful dogs, when they're really not. I don't even understand why breeders would try to make them larger since AKC docks points over 23 inches. Perhaps because Americans are obsessed with big dogs? But why you'd want a hyper, destructive, high prey-drive dog that's the size of a St. Bernard, I have no idea.

This is true with most of the "medium" sized dogs. People want them bigger, so breeders breed them bigger. THis is a HUGE issue in the boxer community. I have seen more and more "giant" boxers, when in reality, they should be only 23 to 25 inches. You shouldn't have a boxer that is as big as a mastiff, and I see them ALL the time. It makes me sad.

Niraya wrote:

Fenrir wrote:

The umbrella world created by the AKC's air of "prestige" is out of control; you have too many stagemom breeders out there who are trying to win through loopholes, and as a result, are actually destroying the entire point of the AKC. The AKC was formed to preserve the purity of the thoroughbred species, but the breeders are corrupting that purity to win. It's ridiculous.

Huskies, too. I get so many people who gawk at my husky because he's 23 inches (at the withers). "Shouldn't he be taller?" No, no he shouldn't. He's a Siberian Husky, not a Malamute. But that understanding isn't present, because Americans think of huskies as these huge, powerful dogs, when they're really not. I don't even understand why breeders would try to make them larger since AKC docks points over 23 inches. Perhaps because Americans are obsessed with big dogs? But why you'd want a hyper, destructive, high prey-drive dog that's the size of a St. Bernard, I have no idea.

I agree with that. I think, though, that's also where A LOT of the confusion stems from. It's like people who put so much stock on a dog having "AKC papers" and then they complain about the health problems the dog has - well I'm sorry you thought that someone keeping their dogs tied to a post or in a kennel on broken class and nails and not feeding or grooming them (or other horrible conditions) would have their puppies turn up healthy??? I think simply because the "AKC" is used as an umbrella it is also causing a lot of harm - though I do really agree with you.

(As an aside: A lady once said "I hate the AKC so much and they need to be shut down! [it was in reference to the HSUS claiming the AKC is protecting puppy mills] I have two AKC registered dogs BOTH who have tons of problems but they're registered!" To which I told her it was her fault for not using the resources available to her to find an ethical and responsible breeder. I also said that it was her fault that she felt that it was okay for the "breeders" dogs to be kept in the conditions that they were kept in and that she choose to support someone like that)

I think there is a lot or misinformation or lack of education surrounding the Alaskan Malamute/Siberian Husky ( i know in GENERAL there is but this is specific) as a breed. From just talking with people - it seems many people don't fully grasp that the Alaskan Malamute is a complete and separate breed from the Siberian and bred to do something different. In the peoples eyes they're all "snow dogs" they look very similar - really almost identical if you don't know the difference between the breeds. With so many Siberians being bred out of standard - large Siberians are considered "normal" (I too once thought Siberians were bigger because many of the Siberians we have around here are 60-80+ pounds). And with Malamutes being that size normally they just all became "Huskies".

Example: I went to the dog park the other week and again earlier this week - there is a man who brings his Siberian (adult male) and Malamute (5-6 month female puppy). Both red/whites. His Siberian is 70 pounds and I want to say stands a full 5 inches over Bella at her shoulders (she's 20.5 inches) but he's a purebred Siberian. The malamute is larger than Bella but no by very much.. When she's(the malamute) an adult his male and female will be about the same size (give or take) someone who doesn't know any better will assume them to be both Siberians.

That reminds me of that post on DF where the girl who is that malamute owner. She kept saying thats what I read about snow dogs. I wanted to keep telling her that Siberians and malamutes are 2 different breeds. They are very very different. Let me tell you the only thing that they are the same is pulling sleds, and stubbornness. I was saying 5-6 cups of food is a lot of food. She thinks her malamute should be 100 pounds say what? maggie is 70 pounds and 23 or 24 tall, some of my friends huskies are big as her. Its like people think bulldogs are like pitbulls or other bully breeds. They are all different breeds. People need to educate on breeds. Even some husky owners think malamutes should be 150 pounds and huskies 65 or 70. No joke I had this lady who thinks she was a expert on the breeds.

xD That girl and her Giant Malamute? I was like holy cow 6 cups?!?! But I wasn't gonna touch it. That's for you . I like how she said I was breed bashing because I pointed out all the associated health problems that come from "Giant" Malamutes. lol! When I read that I was like "Really? I'm breed bashing???" Drove me insane every time she said "snow dogs".

Everyone who meets Bella "Will she get any bigger?" "I thought they were bigger". every single conversation starts out like that.

Niraya wrote:

xD That girl and her Giant Malamute? I was like holy cow 6 cups?!?! But I wasn't gonna touch it. That's for you . I like how she said I was breed bashing because I pointed out all the associated health problems that come from "Giant" Malamutes. lol! When I read that I was like "Really? I'm breed bashing???" Drove me insane every time she said "snow dogs".

Everyone who meets Bella "Will she get any bigger?" "I thought they were bigger". every single conversation starts out like that.

Ya, but the bone structure and the pictures the mal looks like maggie. No one comment after me. :lol! I even hate the "giant" mal breeding. A breed that has hip and leg problems in it, lets add to the problem. Dude I get that with maggie. She is 70 pounds perfect weight, everyone thinks of wolves or something with a malamute. a wolfie can get to 100 pounds but thats the wolf in it. Thats the problem with apartments. on their description of mals "very wolf like" bothered me.

Hell, wolves barely break 100 usually (I'm talking North American Grays).

I stopped on that thread - mainly because that girl didn't much seem interested enough to learn.
(I wanted to breed him because he's beautiful duh!) It's not like finding out information on breeds is hard anymore with the use of the internet. She seemed like one of those people who just wanted a "snow dog" to say they have one without doing any of the research or really listening to what people said.

Thats what I said, I was like hun I have been around the breed before maggie, I rescued and worked a shelters. I never wanted a snow dog. After maggie, and my husband for turning me around, haha I only want malamutes. oh well there are people like that in the world. We had an owner in our meet up group that said that about her red malamute too. I was like damn what goes through these red mal owners heads lets breed our malamutes because they are pretty. I try to explain to people what it takes to be a breeder. I go my mom in law was an english bulldog breeder, she isn't one now because of that. She said the health tests and puppy applications and contracts. I told that mal owner what you going to do if people don't want the mal puppy anymore? You have to take it back and do you have the room for that? With them being on BSL lists some people may not be able to own them.

actually the girl that owns a racing sibe is on DF. She got hers from a musher on the east coast. She however races, she also owns 2 other dogs that are sibe mixes. And whats her name with squash, he is an alaskan husky. He looks like an american bulldog! lol

Sassafrass! Boy if I didn't know better I would never guess Squash or Shambles were Alaskans to be honest. I would never even guess they were littermates with how vastly different they are!

ya they are! Crazy huh? I don't want to put a picture of their dogs on here though! lol. They are always my example when people say "alaskan" huskies. I keep saying they are mutts.

lol just put a link up to a thread with pictures of them in it. xD She just did a Squashie photo dump thread too.

I'll see if I can grab that one.

A picture of an Alaskan Husky (Squash)! (click the link)
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-pictures-forum/114299-squashs-big-day-photo.html

This is actually a link to an article(link within the thread) prevalent to this forum (discussion):
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/112198-what-sled-dogs-made.html

(Shambles is Squash's littermate. Shambles is the brindle/white dog posted by "ThoseWordsAtBest" near the bottom.)
There are also pictures of other Alaskan's (the more traditionally though of alaskans) and purebred working Siberians.

I think steph "shambles" owner said she is doing a mushing clinic with him. Squashy is so cute! hehe. It is amazing the differences in purebreds and racing huskies. Wasn't balto an alaskan too?

They're both (sqaush and shambles) doing clinics I believe.

Nah Balto was a purebred Siberian but Seppala had him neutered.

[quote="Niraya"]Hell, wolves barely break 100 usually (I'm talking North American Grays).


Actually the grey wolf can be anywhere between 55 - 130 lbs. Many males are being found that weigh well over 100 lbs.

The problem is the same with labs as well, my female is a small female at 53 lbs, but people act like she is a dwarf (she isn't) people are used to seeing some labs weighing 80-100 lbs. Labs, like huskys, are supposed to be medium sized dogs. REally English labs (which is what my Ruby is) should be rather short stocky dogs. Labs being rated #1 by the AKC for 21 years hasn't helped them, it creates a world of too large labs with many health problems. Same with a lot of breeds.

I get asked if Balon is a siberian or a malamute, I don't think he looks anything like a malamute. Oh and I got my first, hey is that a wolf? C'mon people wolf hybrids are illegal in my state! But they still ask lol.

"Adult female gray wolves in northern Minnesota weigh between 50 and 85 pounds, and adult males between 70 and 110 pounds."

The key word in my statement was usually. Since weight is determined by amount of food available. To maintain a pack of wolves around 100 pounds they'd have to live in an area of abundant food sources and also take down these huge animals regularly (wolf kills are about 4-10% successful) - which are primarily migratory animals up in Canada where they can OCCASIONALLY reach 130 and they usually only get that heavy in spring.

"Gray wolves are larger in the northwestern United States, Canada, and Alaska and in Russia where adult males weigh 85 to 115 pounds and occasionally reach 130 pounds."

If you want to get technical - they (wolves as a whole not specific to the grays) can also be as tiny as 30 pounds.

Most hybrids I have seen were timber than gray. This mal timber mix was huge!!!! he said 130 and tall! He was very sweet though!

Oh sorry Ceara, I wasn't trying to get technical, please don't take it that way, I just like to research wolves in general, and the size was just what I was reading was found in the grey wolf. Not meant to be taken any other way, so sorry.

No need to apologize. don't be silly!

I've been learning and studying wolves since I can remember. I used to give educational tours about Arctic Wolves as a volunteer job when I was in school so I'm kind of a stickler for the facts about them (they are very much my favoritest animal along with Dolphins so I'm always reading about them)

I realize now re-reading it I sounded kind of like a jerk probably. So if anything I owe you an apology

Nope you don't it's really hard when typing to see how it may come across to others, I could have worded that better.

Nice to see others like researching wolves as well

Oh yes! I do agree it is!!

I have books and books and books throughout my home on wolves and research. Books that I got when I was 7 or 8 or 10 years old to more recent books within the past 5 years. Spent several years sponsoring wolves also.

I honestly don't much find the time to research as much since my Siberian breed research and breeder research takes up a good portion of my time -_- but I do when I can as I like to somewhat try and stay up to date on what's happening.

I don't have anything to add, but just want to thank you guys for an interesting read . It surprises me when people look at Ghost and think he is a typical husky when he is so tall (he is a rescue - previously stray - so we can't say for sure what he is). He is way over the breed height. I usually say yes to whatever people think he is - malamute or husky - unless they ask if he is a wolfdog and then I say no!

I love wolves too . They have a special wolf on Vancouver Island - specific to the island - that is a reddish colour. They are beautiful.

Nothing to add except, Ceara, you're a jerk! lol.