Hey everybody!

Leo is a little over 10 weeks old.

Two weeks ago when I got Leo, my breeder mentioned an exercise where I would cradle Leo in my arms and not let him go until I wanted him to. I tried this the first few days and he didn't seem to care, he actually would fall asleep like this.

I tried it again today and after about 15 seconds he started to move his front paws around like he was begging. Another 15 seconds and he was crying like I was hurting him or something. I tried to comfort him and snuggle with him and all that, but it didn't help. After about a minute he tried to bite me and I'm pretty sure he showed his teeth at me! As soon as I put him down on the ground he was right back to normal - like nothing happened.

Is this exercise safe and is his reaction normal?

I have never agreed with this practice personally. It's not natural and in my opinion not necessary. Of my 3 dogs, only one of them tolerates being held that way and it's the most insecure of the pack. It's a very vulnerable position and I wouldn't do it to any of my dogs, you can achieve the same results you'd get from that practice through other training which is going to be much more effective and positive.

Zoey is terrified of being on her back, I have no idea why, but she has always been like that. She's supposed to be learning roll over for obedience class, but the second I get her on her back she's flailing and screaming, I give up lol

I used to have a Lab and he'd roll over on his back all-the-time. Usually because he wanted attention (I couldn't help but rub his belly). He was also pretty insecure around new people and dogs.

Makes sense... and Leo doesn't mind being on his back when he's playing. He only freaks out when I'm doing it for no reason, at least in his mind.

Thanks!

Jennet&Embry wrote:

Zoey is terrified of being on her back, I have no idea why, but she has always been like that. She's supposed to be learning roll over for obedience class, but the second I get her on her back she's flailing and screaming, I give up lol

Don't give up, just be extra patient and keep working at it. My sibe hates being on his back except for belly rubs so it was really hard to train him to roll over. But I didn't give up and 2 years after adopting him he finally got it.

alex.demskie wrote:

I used to have a Lab and he'd roll over on his back all-the-time. Usually because he wanted attention (I couldn't help but rub his belly). He was also pretty insecure around new people and dogs.

Makes sense... and Leo doesn't mind being on his back when he's playing. He only freaks out when I'm doing it for no reason, at least in his mind.

Thanks!

Rolling onto their back during play, for attention/belly rubs, or as a sign of submission is not the same and isn't necessarily an indication of insecurity. These are all things a normal dog will do, however the difference is that the dog offers the behavior of his own accord and is not physically forced into it. It's one of those reasons I'm strongly against alpha rolling as well. Forcing a dog to physically submit means nothing more than that they were physically overpowered that instance, when they offer their submission on their own that is meaningful. Look at natural packs of dogs/wolves, they don't force other members onto their back, the lower ranking members roll over willingly as a sign of submission. I see this in all 3 of my dogs on a regular basis and no physical force is ever necessary.

This may be a dumb question.. but why do you even need to do something like that? What is the point of it? What is this teaching the dog?

Tiff&Kya wrote:

This may be a dumb question.. but why do you even need to do something like that? What is the point of it? What is this teaching the dog?

Our trainer suggested trying it for a few reasons. If your dog takes to it well, like Isis has for us, it is a good way to let them be close to you and in your lap, without them leaping on you. It also affords you some extra control when it comes to checking them for fleas, trimming their nails, or anything else that, while they will tolerate, it could be painful for them or you if they were to jerk away suddenly, or decide to kick/flail/etc.

If you sit on the ground, Isis will actually come up between your legs, lay down, and roll over in the "belly rub" position, so you can cradle her. I will say, Dante isn't nearly as big of a fan of it, so we tend to just have him lay over our legs, which he will do willingly.

If I force Appa onto his back he hates it and flails and kicks and runs away. If I trick him into it by rubbing his belly he'll do it willingly and happily. I can then proceed to give him a little massage and then he'll usually let me manipulate his feet without too much complaint/running away. It really is the difference between choosing to submit and being forced to for him.

Domingo wrote:

Tiff&Kya wrote:

This may be a dumb question.. but why do you even need to do something like that? What is the point of it? What is this teaching the dog?

Our trainer suggested trying it for a few reasons. If your dog takes to it well, like Isis has for us, it is a good way to let them be close to you and in your lap, without them leaping on you. It also affords you some extra control when it comes to checking them for fleas, trimming their nails, or anything else that, while they will tolerate, it could be painful for them or you if they were to jerk away suddenly, or decide to kick/flail/etc.

If you sit on the ground, Isis will actually come up between your legs, lay down, and roll over in the "belly rub" position, so you can cradle her. I will say, Dante isn't nearly as big of a fan of it, so we tend to just have him lay over our legs, which he will do willingly.

Ah. Well I suppose that makes sense. My dogs do that without any coaxing. Only, they do LEAP on us LOL!

Instead of forcing them so submit (especially at so young an age), why not just get them used to being handled; since I'm guessing that's the reasoning behind it? Touch his paws, his ears, pretend to clip nails, have him get used to having his face touched looked at, touch and pat his tail. Condition him to like being groomed. Holding them against their will, in my opinion, will have negative effects and only make him not want to be around you. Positive reinforcement teaches respect, forcing your respect teaches fear and distrust. Just my 2 cents though.