I have an 8 month old puppy Lab/German Shepherd who is 62 lbs right now, I heard that corn meal and animal by products are an absolute no no for dogs. Is there any other ingredients I need to look out for that are not good for my pup?
I want to give my puppy all natural food without all those "extras" in it, but i'm also on a budget , right now I am feeding Nature's Recipe. I just don't want to spend $50 on a bag of dog food. Any suggestions??

I know you don't want to spend much but i think having one dog that 30lb bag will last at least a month or two? Petco is selling some decent food now and if u can catch it on sale its not bad. With the higher qulity food u feed less of it. Check out our what are u feeding thread and it will give u an idea, most grain free foods are all stage of life foods.

Oh and Welcome!

Check out Taste of the Wild or the comparable Costco Brands. Jenn- what's the name of the Costco one?

Jenn makes a good point though. If you can coupon shop, Petco has some decent brands that you can use coupons for and it brings the cost down considerably.

We have two dogs (45 lbs and 60 lbs) and between the two of them, it takes us about a month at least to go through a 30 lb bag of TOTW. So for one dog, I would think two months is reasonable to expect. Thus, the higher cost evens itself out in the end because it lasts you longer between purchases.

You have to remember that higher quality foods don't require you to feed as much. So whereas a 30 lb bag of purina would last you less than a month because you have to feed 3-4 cups of it a day, on a grain-free food (like TOTW for instance) you hold onto it longer because you're only feeding 2 cups a day for the same amount of nutrition.

Check out the stickied "What are you Feeding your Husky?" thread (like Jenn said ) for suggestions!

We get natures doman from costco that is grain free and around $30ish a bag I think

This site offers ratings on foods that can be used as a guide/starting out point: Dog Food Analysis

I second Tori and Jenn's advice.

I know price is a factor so I will forgo the pricier foods available, but Blue Buffalo, By Nature, Avoderm, Castor & Pollux, and Taste of the Wild are some decent cheaper options.

Taste of the Wild is a good all life stages food that is grain free and won't break the bank. I think it runs anywhere from $40-48 or so but you can find good deals on it. I think some people on here have bought TOTW for cheaper than $40 for the 30 lb bag even.

By Nature is decent and is priced about the same as Nature's Recipe I believe.

I know you don't have a Costco near you but for others, Kirkland kibble is a very decent food that is well priced. Jenn, we still don't have the grain free food at Costco here on the east coast as far as I know...at least I haven't seen it in Central FL, SC, or NC yet.

I had walked into Petco and when I was looking through the dog food I noticed the big bags were close to $50 a bag and I know my husband would never spend that much on a bag of dog food. I'll go back into petsmart or petco and compare all the prices. I'll check out those brands you guys had mentioned. Unfortunately I don't have a costco near me.

Why don't you have to feed the dog as much when buying higher quality food?
What is the differences between Natural, Organic, and Holistic dog food??

Because a higher quality food contains better ingredients that are safer, fresher, and it contains less fillers, your dog needs LESS of it to feel full and get the nutrition that he needs from it.

Think about it. The more vegetables, protein, and fruits that you feed your family, the less you need to use fillers like rice, grain, and pasta. Same for dogs. The more the food is packed with nutritious ingredients, the less you need of the fillers. So he's taking in less weight, but more nutrition.

Ooooh ok. That makes sense. Thanks! Boy I feel like such a newborn when it comes to dogs lol. The better the foog the less you have to feed. So are foods made with grain bad for a dog? I checked out the thread "What are you feeding your husky" and noticed some people are not too crazy about foods made with grains. I also realized just like with people the heathier products are more expensive and i guess that applies to dog food as well. If I make the choice to feed my dog higher quality foods I will be paying more.

mcooks wrote:

So are foods made with grain bad for a dog?

Not really. Grains are cheap filler. Humans are omnivores so we eat and derive nutrition from both plants and animals. Dogs are carnivores and derive their nutrition from meat. Dogs cannot break down plant protein unless the cell walls are broken down for them. Dogs are meant to eat meat so when you buy grain inclusive food you are paying for filler. Why feed them something they cannot use?

mcooks wrote:

I also realized just like with people the heathier products are more expensive and i guess that applies to dog food as well. If I make the choice to feed my dog higher quality foods I will be paying more.

Not necessarily. If you break it down, often times you'll find that it may cost the same to feed low quality food as it does to feed high quality. I have to run but I can explain more later.

Hercules was on Hills Science Diet at the shelter and I had bought the Nature's Recipe Puppy food and started trying to switch his food. I was reading the package and it says it contains no fillers or by products, no wheat, corn, no beef. In your opinion, am I safe to use that? It is a great price i think, $16 for a 15lb bag at the commissary. People are saying though that they buy 30lb bags for about 35 bucks, so I am guess thats around same price.

We noticed today that Hercules was having some smelly farts, do you think it's b/c of the new food? And if so, does that mean he is not able to tolerate it?
.

Huskyluv wrote:

mcooks wrote:

I also realized just like with people the heathier products are more expensive and i guess that applies to dog food as well. If I make the choice to feed my dog higher quality foods I will be paying more.

Not necessarily. If you break it down, often times you'll find that it may cost the same to feed low quality food as it does to feed high quality. I have to run but I can explain more later.

Continuing on this real quick. Here's a hypothetical example...

You buy a 30 lb bag of Pedigree for $20. Because it is full of junk you have to feed 4 cups per day. The 30 lb bag of Pedigree ends up lasting 3 weeks. So over the course of 6 weeks you spent $40 on Pedigree.

Now lets say you buy a 30 lb Taste of the Wild for $40. Because it has better ingredients you only have to feed 2 cups per day. The 30 lb bag lasts you 6 weeks. So over the same course of 6 weeks you spent $40 on Taste of the WIld.

Now, one was complete junk and not good for your dog at all and the other was much healthier and both ended up costing about the same amount in the long run.

mcooks wrote:

I was reading the package and it says it contains no fillers or by products, no wheat, corn, no beef. In your opinion, am I safe to use that?.

There is no set definition for the term "filler" but Nature's Recipe Puppy formula contains rice and barley which are what I would consider filler. Rice and barley do absolutely nothing for your dog and are essentially a filler carb for all intents and purposes. Another thing that I don't like about it is that it contains lamb digest and salt, and does not contain a lot of meat which is what you ultimately want the majority of your dog's food to be. Do wild dogs hunt animals or fields of grain?

Here's a review of Nature's Recipe puppy on dogfoodanalysis: Nature's Recipe Puppy Lamb Meal & Rice

However, it is a lot better than Science Diet so I have to give you credit for that.

mcooks wrote:

We noticed today that Hercules was having some smelly farts, do you think it's b/c of the new food? And if so, does that mean he is not able to tolerate it?

Just because his food is giving him gas that does not mean he doesn't tolerate it. Although it is terribly unpleasant. Any time something gives any of my dogs gas I don't feed it to them ever again. Gas generally isn't pleasant for those who have it and those who are around those who have it.

How is Hercules' stool looking? Is it firm and formed?

Val beat me to it! But I agree with everything she said, Maria. You have one smart sister there and Val is generally my go-to gal on food recommendations.

Everything she said is what I meant by high quality food costing the same and lasting longer. You get the same bang for your buck with most of them.

Koda wrote:

Val beat me to it! But I agree with everything she said, Maria. You have one smart sister there and Val is generally my go-to gal on food recommendations.

Val is also my general go-to person when it comes to food...she so smart!

ok makes sense, why feed my dog food that is junk when i could be feeding him quality for the same price overall. Thank you. I checked out petsmart food center and I think Im going to 1st try Avoderm and I was also looking into Welness too.

With the whole filler thing, I noticed that most of the dog food contains rice and barley even on the higher quality dog foods, is there no escaping the rice ingredient?

His gas is not as frequent anymore but it still smells awful, his stool is formed and its not too firm but it also doesnt fall apart when we pick it up with the bags. I plan on switching to Avoderm this weekend he is almost done with the bag of food since we only bought a 5lb to see if he could tolerate it.

Koda wrote:

Val beat me to it! But I agree with everything she said, Maria. You have one smart sister there and Val is generally my go-to gal on food recommendations. .

Yep she is pretty smart and amazing!!! My husband and I call her the animal guru. Whenever we have questions about ANYTHING we go to her

mcooks wrote:

With the whole filler thing, I noticed that most of the dog food contains rice and barley even on the higher quality dog foods, is there no escaping the rice ingredient?

His gas is not as frequent anymore but it still smells awful, his stool is formed and its not too firm but it also doesnt fall apart when we pick it up with the bags. I plan on switching to Avoderm this weekend he is almost done with the bag of food since we only bought a 5lb to see if he could tolerate it.

Rice, barley, and oats are typically considered the better grains to have in a food IF you opt for a grain inclusive food. There is nothing wrong with feeding a food that contains them, just be mindful you are paying for a food that will result in less absorption of nutrients. What I mean by that is you're paying for the rice and barley in the food but it's just going to come right back out the other end. Another thing you'll notice on higher quality food is less stool volume. Better food = more digestion/nutrient absorption = smaller stool/less waste. Rice and barley are cheap fillers that do not carry the potential allergy problem that corn does, which is why they are used in the better grain inclusive formulas.

Avoderm is not bad at all for the class that it is in. Let us know how Hercules does on it. His stool sounds fine on the Nature's Recipe, hopefully it'll get a little firmer on the Avoderm.

Are you giving any kind of dog treats? It could also be dog treats that are causing the gas. I know there are some dog treats I've tried that give my pack horrible gas.

I have quietly been researching dog food options for the past month! I have a bazillion questions rolling around in my head. My vet, of course, recommends a brand she sells and I know it's crap, so she's no help. SO here goes some of my ramblings...

First and major issue: Vet tells me dogs are NOT carnivores. Well, technically they are classified as carnivores, HOWEVER, so is the giant panda and his diet is 99% bamboo! Another place I read that dogs, although carnivores, should be considered "opportunistic feeders" in the wild. I don't know....if left in your garden, would a dog eat your tomatos or peas or dig up your potatoes?

Next issue: I, personally, am trying to wrap my mind around a bunch of potatoes being better for a carnivore (or whatever a dog is) than, say, rice. Most grain-free foods have potatoes or sweet potatoes as one of their first five ingredients. I found this: http://www.livestrong.com/article/134806-baked-potato-vs-rice-nutrition/
Even though rice is a grain and potatoes are not, they are both fillers and starches (as best as I can tell). I want to feed my dog something that is good for him, but I don't see that a grain-free food really has no fillers. According to http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=myths dogs can and do absorb nutrients and carbs from some grains, rice being 70% absorbed and others less.

Another issue: I am not sure that the "new" formulas of dog food are not just fads and we will begin saying 10 years from now, "Peas are bad for dogs" (or some other ingredient that is now in all premium dog foods) The reason I wonder about the longevity of this formula for feeding dogs is because so many of the recommended dog food manufacters today have been incorporated only in the last 20 years. For example, Natura Pet (Evo), Merrick, and Canidae are all rather new companies. And those are just the one's I know...

If I really thought that paying $2-3 dollars a pound for dog food was worth it in the end, of course I would. I just don't want to be buying into some fad that just comes and goes and we all look back and say, "Remember when we all fed our dogs a grain-free diet?"

It may seem that new nutrition methods are just fads, but I have seen such an improvement in all of my dogs since I changed foods. I fed Science Diet and Iams in the past based on vet recommendations. Various itchy skin problems off and on which I never connected to the food....after all I thought I was feeding the best food available. I now use Natura Innova puppy with the two Husky pups and Innova Adult red meat small bites with my Pit/Lab mix. I add a Pro-enzyme powder to help them to metabolize the increased protein, and add a tsp of extra-virgin olive oil to each meal as a source fatty acids. I don't use Natura EVO because I understand that this works better for dogs who are competing/working hard. All of the dogs have beautiful, shiny, coats, and their body condition is wonderful. Their stools are generally firm, and the amount of food needed is considerably less. I know Natura was bought out by Proctor and Gamble, but after researching the buy-out discovered that there has been no change in the formula and the food continues to be produced at the original plant. I also switched to Innova Cat food and my cats are doing great.....once again less food needed, and no more digestive issues. The price for Innova is less if you use petflow.com instead of buying it at specialty pet stores. I talked my daughter into switching to Innova and the difference in her dogs condition is amazing!!!! I am convinced that food does matter, and will continue to use Innova as long as the formulation remains the same. And now I will get off my soapbox!!!! LOL

beck3465 wrote:

It may seem that new nutrition methods are just fads, but I have seen such an improvement in all of my dogs since I changed foods. I fed Science Diet and Iams in the past based on vet recommendations. Various itchy skin problems off and on which I never connected to the food....after all I thought I was feeding the best food available. I now use Natura Innova puppy with the two Husky pups and Innova Adult red meat small bites with my Pit/Lab mix.

I am also feeding a food very similar to the Innova brand. Innova a high-quality food that includes various grains like rice and barley and oats. The grain-free lines, like Natura's EVO, are the formulas that I am wondering whether or not they are just "fads".

I agree with you about the totally grain free trend right now. Who knows where the pendulum will swing next? I feel that the best things that have come about in doggie diets in recent years are the elimination of corn, soy, and preservatives, along with inclusion of more healthy protein sources and omega three oil products. Innova puppy has 28% protein along with 16% fats, which is a far cry from many popular store shelf brands today. They also include many healthy fruits and veggies. For now it seems to meet the needs of my pups. Yes it is more expensive but still worth the money since smaller quantities are consumed with superior results. Your dog is gorgeous by the way. I have a blue-eyed red male also......he is very funny and quite the prankster. These dogs have personalities like no other breed. Wish I had them in the past instead of just the last year. Oh well, better late than never!!!

All right Lisa, you want to give us a real challenge.

SabakaMom wrote:

First and major issue: Vet tells me dogs are NOT carnivores. Well, technically they are classified as carnivores, HOWEVER, so is the giant panda and his diet is 99% bamboo! Another place I read that dogs, although carnivores, should be considered "opportunistic feeders" in the wild.

Dogs, by definition are technically omnivores, so in that you would be correct. Cats are true carnivores, dogs are not. Like you mentioned bears are also omnivores and have similar teeth structure to dogs, bears eat meat, insects and plant material depending on food availability. Dogs are quite similar, they eat meat but if food is scarce they can scavenge plant material as a means to survive. The dog being considered carnivore vs omnivore is an argument that has gone on for years. Ultimately when it really boils down to what dogs and wolves are MEANT to survive and thrive on, I think we can all agree it is MEAT, not rice or any other plant matter. Just look at what they can digest. Dogs' digestive systems CANNOT break down plant cell walls...what does that tell you? In order for a dog to get any nutrition from plant matter the plant cell walls must be broken down before the dog eats it. Cooking will destroy the cell walls but it will also destroy a great deal of the nutrients in the process, blending the veggies into a veggie paste or slurry to break the cell walls is also an option and often seen in BARF (Bones and Raw food/Biologically Appropriate Raw food) diets. If a dog cannot physically break down plant cell walls, how on earth can it survive on plant matter? Look at most plant matter that they eat, when dogs eat grass, carrots, corn, etc you will normally see it come out the other end looking exactly the way it did when it went in...they can't digest it and therefore get no worthwhile nutrition from it. So with all that said, I do recognize that by definition they are classed as omnivores, HOWEVER for all intents and purposes of feeding, many of us consider them carnivores.

SabakaMom wrote:

I don't know....if left in your garden, would a dog eat your tomatos or peas or dig up your potatoes?

If it was hungry enough and not being fed properly then yeah, it probably would...hence the opportunistic feeding. BUT if you left the dog in the yard with raw chickens and ripe tomatoes, honestly, you know the dog is not going for the tomatoes.

SabakaMom wrote:

Next issue: I, personally, am trying to wrap my mind around a bunch of potatoes being better for a carnivore (or whatever a dog is) than, say, rice. Most grain-free foods have potatoes or sweet potatoes as one of their first five ingredients. I found this: http://www.livestrong.com/article/134806-baked-potato-vs-rice-nutrition/
Even though rice is a grain and potatoes are not, they are both fillers and starches (as best as I can tell). I want to feed my dog something that is good for him, but I don't see that a grain-free food really has no fillers. According to http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=myths dogs can and do absorb nutrients and carbs from some grains, rice being 70% absorbed and others less.

Don't try to wrap your head around it because it really isn't. I don't consider potato any better than rice as far as nutritional value. And yes, potatoes are filler plain and simple. Some dogs have rice allergies and some dogs have potato allergies so switching to a grain free food with potato is not guaranteed to help with dogs with food allergies. Sibes are notoriously sensitive to rice (my sibe included) but some are sensitive to potato too, Heather's husky Koda is allergic to potato I believe.

You mention sweet potato and potato and I want to make this note, they are not created equal! Sweet potato is actually quite good for dogs in moderation and is very easy on their stomach. Potato I prefer not to see in dog food but sweet potato I do prefer so long as it does not make up the bulk of the food.

I'm glad that you are doing your research and asking questions. You no doubt have noticed by now that all grain free foods are not created equal. There are TONS of new "grain free" foods flooding the market lately as more and more pet owners are educating themselves. However a good portion of those new grain free foods are still loaded with fillers like potato and stuff like pea protein to boost the protein percentage. In my opinion, they are still junk and targeted to those uneducated people who were told that grain free is better so they go to the store and look for "grain free" on the bag and assume it must be good. This is why it is so important to know how to read the label and know what is and is not good for your dog. It's kind of like how oats and quinoa are technically considered grains as far as pet food labeling goes, but both are wonderful ingredients for dog food. Oats and quinoa are both superfoods that are very healthy, oats are very calming on the digestive tract and quinoa isn't really a grain but rather a seed. I have also taken note that Chia seeds are a new up-and-coming possible superfood. I'd rather see oats, quinoa, and sweet potatoes in dog food than rice, barley, or potatoes.

SabakaMom wrote:

Another issue: I am not sure that the "new" formulas of dog food are not just fads and we will begin saying 10 years from now, "Peas are bad for dogs" (or some other ingredient that is now in all premium dog foods) The reason I wonder about the longevity of this formula for feeding dogs is because so many of the recommended dog food manufacters today have been incorporated only in the last 20 years. For example, Natura Pet (Evo), Merrick, and Canidae are all rather new companies. And those are just the one's I know...

I wouldn't say that the huge movement from lower quality dog food to higher quality is a fad. Now certain ingredients being promoted as healthy today and not healthy 5 years from now is something that we can't be certain on. Take the whole egg thing years ago and how wonderful they were for people, then years later they were bad for you, and now they're good for you again. lol I honestly don't think anything like that is really going to happen with pet food but who knows.

beck3465 wrote:

I don't use Natura EVO because I understand that this works better for dogs who are competing/working hard.

Evo is fine for normally active dogs. It does have a higher protein and calorie content but that just means you can feed less. I used to feed Evo to my dogs before the P&G buyout, they did great on it and are not working dogs.

beck3465 wrote:

I know Natura was bought out by Proctor and Gamble, but after researching the buy-out discovered that there has been no change in the formula and the food continues to be produced at the original plant.

Legally, they do not have to change the ingredient label for 12 months after an ingredient change. So technically they could change the formula today but don't have to change the label until a year from now. Keep that in mind. Also just because their may not be a change in the formula, that does not mean they are using the same quality ingredients. Using lower quality ingredients will change the product making it lower quality overall while saving P&G money but without forcing them to change the label. I'm on a number of different forums and I can tell you that a good number of people who fed Evo before and after the P&G buyout started complaining of problems ranging from diarrhea/vomiting to allergies after starting new bags of food right around 6 months after the buyout...coincidence?

SabakaMom wrote:

I am also feeding a food very similar to the Innova brand. Innova a high-quality food that includes various grains like rice and barley and oats. The grain-free lines, like Natura's EVO, are the formulas that I am wondering whether or not they are just "fads".

Evo is not a food that I would consider a fad at all. Evo is very similar to Orijen and Wellness Core which I have always considered the "leaders" of the grain free move. Blue Buffalo Wilderness is also very similar to Evo, Orijen, and Core. These products are the ones to be modeled but they are expensive and many of the up-and-coming new grain free foods just don't come close. There was a time that I had the utmost respect for Evo, Orijen, and Core. Evo and Core both sold out and their product quality has suffered because of it, I used to recommend them all the time before they sold out, now I would never recommend them. Orijen however is holding on and doing well, I still have the utmost respect for Orijen and hope they never let their customers down by selling out. Acana is also made by the same company as Orijen (Champion pet food) and has good grain free formulas as well.


*sigh* And the above is mainly just talking about kibble, there are also much better options for feeding that include raw, homecooking, freeze dried and dehydrated raw.

Never noticed any change in food quality since P and G takeover and have been feeding Innova Puppy to my 14 month old since he was 8 weeks old. No digestive issues with any of my three dogs.Had read about EVO being more suited to working dogs from an online book about Huskies, but it was a year ago and can't remember exact reference. I am not comfortable with raw, homecooking etc. Kibble suits our lifestyle better, since we camp a lot and travel. Also don't want to worry about balanced diet issues with raw or homecooking. Guess the bottom line is there is no one right way..... depends on individual dogs and owner preferences. I feel lucky that both of my Huskies seem to have no food allergies, knock on wood. Will keep an eye on ingredients list for food and will act accordingly if detrimental changes occur.

Dogs that are more sensitive are the most likely to show effects from the change. While there are a lot of people whose dogs suddenly started having reactions 6 months after the buyout on Natura products, there are also plenty of people who did not observe any changes in their dogs like yourself. Two of my dogs are sensitive and one is not, my one who is not I'm sure would not show signs of changes on the post buyout formula.

I also was not suggesting that you or anyone else change what you are feeding, my closing comment in my last post was merely reflecting on how much you can get into a single type of food. I.e. there's so much more to the issue when you take into account other types.

And I know tons of people, not just husky owners, who feed Evo to their non-working dogs. It is a better food for working dogs because of it's high protein and high calories but that doesn't mean the average dog can't eat it.

Val, you have amazing amounts of knowledge about EVERYTHING!

If I could surmise what's happening within the pet food industry using my puny amount of knowledge, I would assume that some folks like you or I at some point in time noticed that the major dog food manufacturers (many of whom are candy bar and tooth paste manufacturers) are not doing a good job meeting the needs of our pets. So we start our own company and do quite well until we get tired of it, get taxed to death or find our profits lower than expected. Sadly, we sell out to some of the big guys. And this gets repeated over and over again!

I'm still not convinced that grain-free food containing potatoes as a filler is worth the price difference that many of these manufacturers suggest. I, too, have thought that Acana might be a good choice, but have found Acana to be one of the foods I cannot find in my area. I have 3 great little pet stores, each specializing in brands different than the other ones. One store has the "If you want it and we don't stock it perhaps we can order it" sign on the dog food wall.

I'm currently feeding a Merrick puppy food. But Merrick is a VERY new company and I wonder how long it will survive. I really should think more positively

Huskyluv wrote:

Don't try to wrap your head around it because it really isn't. I don't consider potato any better than rice as far as nutritional value. And yes, potatoes are filler plain and simple. Some dogs have rice allergies and some dogs have potato allergies so switching to a grain free food with potato is not guaranteed to help with dogs with food allergies. Sibes are notoriously sensitive to rice (my sibe included) but some are sensitive to potato too, Heather's husky Koda is allergic to potato I believe.

Yes, Heather's husky, Koda, is extremely allergic to ANYTHING potato. My Ginger is allergic to rice, and chicken in kibble form, but not raw, dehydrated or freeze dried. She also seems to not be able to tolerate beef. I'm still figuring out what OTHER intolerances she could have but so far, the ONE thing she does really well on, in any form, be it raw, cooked, kibble, dehydrated, freeze dried, or whatever, is FISH! And she LOVES fish! I should take her to a Japanese restaurant with a patio and order her a sashimi platter!