You are right about he seems really friendly - he IS. He comes to me to be petted. Ditto with Wayne and people he meets. But...dogs, food, he's sweet and wonderful than, boom. The original owner had problems...the shelter said food aggression and the shelter volunteers described him as sweet and loving. The report that I got when I picked him up said owner had bite when tried to move him off couch, she fell outside and he bit her, picked up a chunk of cheese in kitchen and bit when trying to take it away. Bit a small dog on a walk.

We didn't immediately go to the muzzle. The problem is there is no warning, no tensing, no teeth bared, no shackles. Not even a general stiffening. He takes food fine from our hands. Its after the food is gone that is the problem.

Wayne calls him Mr. Jekyll and Dr. Hyde. He certainly seems to have his fear component but also seems like there is something else...Wayne calls it revenge for the food being gone.

As for the muzzle. I only got it a week ago. He sits still and waits for it to go on. I give him chicken jerky while he's wearing it. Its a baskerville ultra basket muzzle that allows eating and drinking. He still can do damage, though - at the end of feeding a couple days ago, which I thought had gone well, he lunged into my face - no bite because of muzzle but a nice deep scratch from toe nail.

I'm kind of at a loss. I would really like to start using a bowl from a distance, put food in it and trade for yummies, tossed from a distance if need be and without muzzle. But he then needs to be led back to the crate or taken for walk which means close contact and handling which has proven to be problematic.

How did you handle Keno when he tried to bite while feeding? So far, I give a simultaneous loud "no" a sharp lift of the leash and hold him at arms length (he has his hind legs on the ground) until he calms.

Keno always had to wait for food so he wasn't near when I was putting the bowl down. Stay was the first trick he learned and we worked on it hard the first couple days. I would sit the bowl down and then he would come in. My face was never on his level. I handled him with my feet. A boot gets the point across. He couldn't do damage through my jeans if he were to get a hold of me, but he never did because my gut reaction was always faster than his. If I want him back from something I would move him back with my feet. If you put your shoe to the front of their shoulder blade it is really hard for them to make the turn to grab. You could also look into the round scruff collars some people use instead of cones of shame. It will stop a lot of the swinging his neck around movement and you will have a little more time to get the correction in before he actually makes contact.

Biggest thing is getting past the fear he has established. He is just as scared of you as you are of him probably by now. He shows it by lashing out. You show it by restricting him with things. Does he get any freedom time? Not walks but like a moment to run loose in the yard or a fenced in area where he can just run? Walks are great but a dog still needs that freedom from the leash.

Not much freedom - just a bit in the shop. Even though my back yard is fenced, its only 4 ft chain link, huge and the inground pool is only partially frozen but with cover on, dogs think its safe to walk on (I have invisible fence around it but Z'ev not trained to that yet - I'm loathe to add to many training things on him at once. Also - Ami and Archer have been burying bones out there in the brush around the lawn for eternity. I'm not ready to deal with that yet, my nose won't find them and Ami doesn't seem willing to go find them for me

Maybe I'll up his supervised free time in the shop,

He does "wait" on leash really well...I'll work more on that. But, as I have said the issue mostly isn't while I'm giving him food...its after the food is gone. Think I'll try keeping long lead on him and taking him out immediately after eating.

I wouldn't be concerned with how short the 4ft fence is. If you put the long line on him if he gets a wild hair to try and scale it you can get him caught easy enough. Not all huskies are enthusiastic to jump fences. Not at least right away. He would spend a certain amount of time looking around the area first. Kenzi will lay on my front porch for hours and that's a 3ft railing. She's never offered to even stand on it. If you have some roll wire for putting around a garden or something I would put that up around the pool and block that, then if he goes to get on it just give the long line a tug. There is so much world out there at this new place he hasn't seen, but from the barn he can hear it and smell it and that has to be frustrating for him.

For example on how little can hold some (not all obviously, lol) huskies, this is the railing I am referring to that neither of mine even test.



I really would give the fenced in portion of the yard a try. If he lingers too long on an area or digs like he might be after a hidden bone, give correction through the line.

Amy, I agree with Jenn, Z'ev needs a little more less structured time. My neighbors had an escape artist of a husky, yet he would never jump their 4 foot fence, his escaping was from not leashing him from going to house to kennel, or from not leashing when getting out of the car, he knew he was faster and he was gone. Had him in their fenced in section and never tried to escape, so every husky is different. I imagine just some relaxed time outside, smell around and just get some down time may help greatly, and wont even think about escaping the perimeter, long line and a quick flick of the wrist for a correction will work. I do have 2 articles, have to find the other one, but they may help and give you a different direction in how to handle this boy. We all want to see you, your family, and your dogs succeed, hopefully some extra tools will help you find success.

http://lgarinc.org/decompression-the-two-week-shutdown/

Renee - long line is what I am thinking but it will have to be chain. This boy chewed through my brand new leash while sitting quietly in the 2 minutes I was signing paperwork with the transport company. Then, quietly chewed through the car seat tether I use for Ami. Even Ami, the first few times on my long lead, while I was chatting with people, quietly lay down and chewed through the lead...

Thanks for the article.

You are welcome, and here is the other one, I have only read this article, but check out her other stuff may find some other useful help on her site http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/mindgames.html

i gave that article to a friend of mine a few weeks ago, her female husky growled at her for petting her, she is a little over a year old, and she has been a difficult pup ever since bringing her home at 6 weeks, yep too early, anywho, sometimes it's a training issue and sometimes a behavior issue and sometimes both. If training isn't working, perhaps behavior modification would be a better place to work with him. If I stumble upon anything else I will gladly send it your way. also, have you had a chance at looking in the training section of the forum? I know that the moderator arooroomom had posted up several pages on training, and behavior, you may glean some different approaches. Sometimes we have to stray away from what we know and try a different approach, every dog is different, and every dog responds to different techniques.

Yea, I've been burning up our internet with the training pageson here and schemer else., the good dog training videos and anything else i can get my hands on. Training him, as far as typical obedience is fine... he needs a behavior modification program for the aggression, though. Most everything on that is... find his comfort zone, back off from that a bit more and give him food from there while he gets used to me. Then gradually decrease the distance, never exceeding his comfort zone. Once that happens, or while, counter condition with luscious high value treats.

Another day, another post on Z'ev. Guys, thanks for all the responses yesterday. To say I'm getting discouraged is the least. But, your responses gave me renewed resolve. I did see improvement yesterday - and even a bit of the fun pup he could be. It is my practice to stop 3-4 times at various off the road spots where we can walk around, I give him the full leash and just let him sniff and meander. At first, he would not leave my side and instead of looking around with interest, it was look around anxiously.

Well, yesterday, at all 3 stops, he made snow angels. And, he's starting to sniff with interest instead of watching anxiously. And for our evening walk around of the property, he was snow plowing and porpoising. I even used my short leash as a lunge line to let him run in circles. Will be going to longer line for that, now that he is not stiffly by my side.

And...the biggest step. Last night, while in the house crate, I was feeding him cheese on a cocktail fork in his crate through the muzzle - he dropped a piece in the crate, too far for my fingers to reach but I could with the fork...previously, any fingers into the crate were subject to immediate truncation. Last night, he watched, did not even paw at it! He's learning, I think, that I will deliver the goods, no matter what. I hope.

And this morning, after his breakfast in the house crate (without muzzle this time) I let him get settled and then, with Ami on leash, brought Ami into the sunroom with a cheese stick in little bits. Now, Z'ev was very voiciferous - no snarling or growling or lunging, but definitely voicing his fear and disapproval. I had Ami lay down about 5 ft from the crate, me in the middle. I then put a piece of cheese on the fork and waited. When Z'ev became more interested in the cheese than Ami ("sit" helped here) I gave him the cheese. After the first 3 pieces, Z'ev stopped complaining between cheese bits. Even was quiet when Ami got the alternating pieces!

So. This is my new plan for the moment: Ami gets walked first thing in the AM for 30 minutes, we come back, Ami gets on his line with a bone. I take Z'ev out for his morning constitutional, we come back to the house, he goes in the crate, gets hand fed his breakfast. Ami comes in (if he wants). Somewhere mid-morning, I bring Ami and cheese into the sunroom and they have "coffee break" together. mid-afternoon, Z'ev gets his afternoon long walk then Ami gets another walk. The question is whether Z'ev goes back in the crate in the shop or in the house. If he's quiet, he'll come in the house. But, I not only have Z'ev and Ami to manage...there is the resident curmudgeon

Once Z'ev is regularly tolerating Ami's presence for the cheese, I'll begin to give him short, tethered, uncrated in-house time. Wonder how long that will take?

Nice to hear Amy!! I would stay in that holding pattern until all involved are relaxed, then move on in baby steps. I imagine your confidence has been affected, and something I say to people often is be firm, and act and speak with confidence. If a dog senses the lack of confidence in the handler they will walk all over you, and in Z'ev's case having mouthy tendencies. I also believe that dogs learn from each other, and spending time with a good mannered Ami will show Z'ev that being calm and polite gets you way more freedom. I appreciate your posts, and despite the huge challenge, I personally feel that this thread may be helpful for someone else with a challenging rescue. Not all dogs come into a home perfect, that's normally why they end up in rescues, they challenged the original owner and that owner couldn't cope nor adapt to the challenge.

Thanks, Renee. There are two reasons I am making this chronicle - the first being, I do not purport to be an expert and can use all the help I can get. I am committed, though. As is hubby - he was devastated after the bite when the rescue said maybe Z'ev was not rehab-able. Hubby sobbed like a baby and over and over, I don't want him to be killed. Needless to say, I was equally sobbing but from that comes a deep resolve for both Z'ev AND my husband - he, after all, is the one who saw the notice I accidentally left up after looking up the dog Jenn was potentially interested in. Z'ev really is a sweet thing - even if I call him the "murderous midget" and Wayne calls him "the vampire."

And - I hope, by sharing the many ups and downs, people will at least know what they are in for with a problem rescue dog, maybe get some ideas and some support.

I sort of don't believe that Z'ev was abused or neglected, particularly. I suspect his original owners were unprepared for a high strung, nervous, shy by nature animal. I also wonder - Z'ev is quite the talker. And a drama queen. I remember when Wayne thought that Ami was growling at him with his basso profundo woo woo "I'm so happy to see you!" Z'ev talks in a shrieking, wailing, mouth wide open fashion when he sees food coming...for the husky un-initiated it is quite possible the original owners felt threatened by this (I wait until he is still before commencing feeding.) Z'ev is also tiny - suspect the runt of the litter and probably had to fight for every morsel as a pup. I don't know all that the original owners did for training but I do know, at least from the report, he knows "out" means to leave the kitchen. And...they did keep him for 6 years.

This video also helped me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKXZJoagtc

Ill prepared owners, isn't that we all encourage people to do, research the breed, Yep I agree, the owner made mistakes, and with a husky those mistakes propel themselves sometimes out of control. And the vocals, lol, don't they sound so vicious, lol, yea, huskies are such a unique breed, and so much smarter than many who do not understand the breed knows.

Amy after rereading what the owner mentioned on the biting, some of it I have to wonder was a misread on the owners part of play biting? Also curious, do you know when he was neutered? I have read about some huskies displaying seasonal aggression, which normally affects female unaltered huskies, but I do wonder if the pushing off the couch bite may relate to that. I will admit openly that Miya has bit my husband for the same reason, get off the couch, since she has false heats, and she was experiencing that we have now chalked it up to seasonal aggression, and I remind him to use commands vs just pushing her, when she is in her special "mood". She has never drawn blood on him, but it was enough of a bite that a very large man that he is had punctures for several days and a swollen hand. I can relate, and fully understand some of the difficulties that you are encountering.

ETA: Amy seen Sean's video, and right on Rome wasn't built over night, and 6 years worth of poor dog handling can not be undone in 1 month. I am glad that the video and the positive encouragement allowed you to stop and reassess, i will post up something in a separate thread, perhaps it will give perspective to you as well as for others. Happy day for you and Z'ev!

Renee - funny you should ask about the neutering.  We have no record of date BUT:  There is a partially grown in shaved area on his belly starting at the base of his ribs and extending to his hind legs.  When he first rolled over for a belly rub (or should I say, total stiff submission) I was quite perturbed - he still had a scrotum!  But, hubby noticed a green magic marker line on Z'ev's belly, inline between his penis and scrotum so we are surmising that neutering was done probably in the few weeks before surrendering him. And...his scrotum is shrinking rapidly.

And, uh...noooo...do not think this was a mis-read re play-biting.  Trust me...this is real!

Here is the sweet boy sleeping like an angel in the sun room crate.  Don't mind all my outdoor clothing ditched next to him.

It does appear then he may have had seasonal aggression, and yes it is for real. So hopefully he will tame down, since it does appear he was recently neutered. And what a sweet pic.

amymeme wrote:

Thanks, Renee.  There are two reasons I am making this chronicle - the first being, I do not purport to be an expert and can use all the help I can get.  I am committed, though.  As is hubby - he was devastated after the bite when the rescue said maybe Z'ev was not rehab-able.  Hubby sobbed like a baby and over and over, I don't want him to be killed.  Needless to say, I was equally sobbing but from that comes a deep resolve for both Z'ev AND my husband - he, after all, is the one who saw the notice I accidentally left up after looking up the dog Jenn was potentially interested in.  Z'ev really is a sweet thing - even if I call him the "murderous midget" and Wayne calls him "the vampire."

And - I hope, by sharing the many ups and downs, people will at least know what they are in for with a problem rescue dog, maybe get some ideas and some support.

I sort of don't believe that Z'ev was abused or neglected, particularly.  I suspect his original owners were unprepared for a high strung, nervous, shy by nature animal.  I also wonder - Z'ev is quite the talker.  And a drama queen.  I remember when Wayne thought that Ami was growling at him with his basso profundo woo woo "I'm so happy to see you!"   Z'ev talks in a shrieking, wailing, mouth wide open fashion when he sees food coming...for the husky un-initiated it is quite possible the original owners felt threatened by this (I wait until he is still before commencing feeding.)  Z'ev is also tiny - suspect the runt of the litter and probably had to fight for every morsel as a pup.  I don't know all that the original owners did for training but I do know, at least from the report, he knows "out" means to leave the kitchen.  And...they did keep him for 6 years.

This video also helped me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKXZJoagtc

I love your post here Amy. I've been following your "adventure" here, but staying quiet. Why? Because I am no dog trainer, lol, however, having had so many huskies, with their unique personalities, I do feel I know them and understand them, and much of my thoughts have been just what you posted here in this post...and it tells me you can do this I'm SO glad Jenn and Renee stepped up cuz I got the feeling you were feeling alone in this and being such a huge undertaking, it can take its toll, with help, either in the form of advice or just a sounding board of ideas and things like that, in my opinion, helps lift that enormous burden off you and in turn, Z'ev will make a turn around much sooner. You can do this Amy, I know you can

You are right about that, Jimmy.  I am no dog trainer, either.  Just a committed (or commit-able ) person with a good, basic knowledge of learning theory and behavior modification...as well as acute people/dog reading skills (long ago I was an adolescent psychotherapist.  There are similarities here )  And yes.  I have been feeling discouraged, alone and incompetent.  I had expected a dog that sat over his bowl and snarled, bared his teeth.  I figured it would be like Archer when he was younger....hand feeding, trading up, sit, wait for dinner and that in a month I'd be seeing vast improvement.  Instead I got Cujo...or, as Wayne calls him, The Tiny Vampire.  Who almost seemed autistic when we first got him...somewhere between nothing and deadness in his eyes.  Whose first impulse when anything isn't to his liking is to lash out.

This morning, bringing Ami into the sun-room to start the process of desensitizing to dogs, I thought my heart would break.  At the very first, Z'ev started screaming and wailing.  Not snarling, not attack mode, just pressing himself as far into the corner as he could.  Poor Ami was upset and cringed.  Fortunately, once I had Ami sitting (then lying down) and Z'ev saw the cheese, things rapidly improved.  He still wailed when Ami got up to leave the room, but nowhere near as intense.  I'll repeat tomorrow but probably have Ami further away than the 5' I chose this morning.

I'm not sure a professional would have started with hand-feeding through the crate wires but this rapidly seemed to be the best solution.  And, I know that putting a bone in his crate is frowned on by all who have any experience with food aggression but, honestly, this poor boy needed something to soothe himself with in the crate.  That bone gave him something that made him want to run into the crate.  Something to while away the hours in their.  And, I've made that crate inviolate.  That is HIS.  I will not take away that bone.  I will not trespass in his space.  Well, I had to the day he escaped, had to fortify the back wall.  But, I think the experience of him finding the other, discarded bone in the garbage and me taking it away from him (yea, with a broom) showing it to him and putting it in the crate for him while he watched me (tethered, mind you   ) was a good experience for him. (Ami and Archer have a bone a day, I am forever picking up the remains and tossing them in the garbage.  I just forgot there was one in there.  And Ami and Archer are spoiled - they gnaw off the meat, fat and sinew, gnaw on the  remaining bone for a bit and then aren't interested in it anymore...they want a new one.  And they know they are in the freezer and right where the freezer is

So, any and all comments are more than welcome.  Makes me feel not quite so alone in this and the experience of others who've been through this is invaluable. So...thank you, people!

How does he do if you feed him something and then hold your palms flat and toward him as if to prove there is nothing more? Kenzi will hound me like I am holding out on her with treats until I hold out my empty hands and prove that I have nothing. She will sniff them over and then walk off.

Ugh...the excited wail. Keno will let out a horrible whine when he sees another dog on a walk. He just doesn't know how to express his excitement. It's full on embarrassing. Z'ev will get better with this with time and bravery. It will take a bit for him to realize Ami won't eat him and he is safe.

Ummm...the "all done" with flat upheld hands. That is what I'm working on.  That's also when he lit into Wayne.

Uh, ya.  That half excited half terrified wail.
Right. Now.

Don't know what to make of this, today. I slipped and fell on ice today while walking Z'ev. I did not fall on him or even bump him. As soon as I was down, I felt Z'ev's muzzle bumping the back of my head...he proceeded to butt me with the muzzle a couple more times then came around to the front, plopped down in my lap and rolled over on his back. I would like to say for a belly rub but it always seems more submissive surrender than a happy "rub my belly!"

One of the things in the owner's report is that he bit her when she fell so I'm not sure if Z'ev was checking on me, thinking it was play time or was trying to bite.

Don't know if I posted this. Two days ago, taking z'ev out of the crate, I was attaching leash and he was drinking. I was fiddling getting things straight and he whipped his head around with every intent to bite. BUT...I could see the moment he recognized I was no threat and he inhibited the bite. It all happened very fast and I had nothing to do with the inhibition. Progress?

I would think progress. Even him bumping you in the back of the head through the muzzle. If he wasn't hitting you very hard it was probably more of a check than anything. Dogs have a tendency to live with their mouths. Dogs that nip are usually trying to get you to do something in the case of herding dogs or trying to distract and calm another member down. A dog without bite inhibition taught in at an early age could over enthusiastically chomp sometime rather than nip like they meant to. I've seen Collies try and nip at children, not to be mean, but to coax them to stand back up after they have fallen.

Could he have been just trying to sniff you when you fell? I know when that happens to me, Dakota, starts sniffing my head as if I was some weirdo...maybe because he never gets to smell my head, I don't know, or he's trying to figure out what just happened.

Val - that is my best guess. Unlike Ami who just looks at me as if to say "what's the problem, come on, lets go!" The most memorable time was when he actually came over to see what was what as I lay face down in the grass and, after a brief sniff, walked about a ft away, lifted his leg and leg loose less than a foot from my face He did, however, crawl into my lap right after butting my head.

I wonder if it's just a dogs way of gauging the situation, like, how much of an emergency they think it is. Basically, if you react to the face butt, you're conscious and ok.

Aaargh...this is going sooooo slowly Sometimes, I want to just throw Z'ev and Ami in the back yard and just let 'em duke it out. We did some joint feeding this morning, Wayne with Ami on one side of the table and me with Z'ev on the other (muzzled) and feeding. While each was eating things were find but in the interim from tidbit in the bowl to tidbit in the mouth, one or the other would get a bit testy.

Oi. Later, we went for a walk, Wayne with Ami on one side of the road and me with Z'ev on the other. First, Z'ev is the premier drama queen...from the opera no less. Yowl, wail, screach and scream...like he WANTs to play with Ami...til he gets withing 2 ft and its a wail of fright followed by a lunge of fight to the death. Except, I have a secret weapon. He's on a leash.

Very embarassing, his wails. Very tiresome, also.

Ahhh...a moment of peace. Most welcome peace. Z'ev is sleeping in his crate and Ami is sleeping in the kitchen on his pad next to Wayne's chair under the window. Especially after this morning's mishigos.

Ugh..this morning. Playing the ritual Rubic's Cube Canine style, Ami was on his line while I took Z'ev out for his walk. Ami has his ecollar on so I can "vibrate" him if he starts to bark (Wayne was sleeping. Operative word: was.) I come around the corner from the garage and Ami is shrieking from behind his doghouse. I didn't know if he had an animal or his line was wrapped around his leg or what...So I dash over their, Z'ev starting to...don't even know how to describe those noises! Open the gate to the back yard, attach Z'ev to the gate with the leash, call Ami while running up to the doghouse and Ami comes bounding, happily, I might add towards me. Meanwhile Z'ev is continuing with his caterwauling, Ami is now eager to see Z'ev and he's a woo woo wooing. Which gets the caterwauling decibels higher and more frantic.

All, of which, mind you, is just outside our bedroom window Phone rings. Surprise, surprise. "What the hell is going on?!!?"

Conclusion: I think when I put the transmitter to Ami's collar in my pocket I pushed the button on, probably the boost button...and it was in continuous mode (now switched to momentary!!!) Fortunately, Ami was his happy go lucky self once I called him.