What a beautiful dog, Amy.

I've enjoyed reading up on your rehabilitation progress, and look forward to seeing what hurdles you & Z'ev overcome next.

amymeme wrote:

We're working on that Jimmy.  Once bitten and twice shy, ya know?  Have  started taking muzzle off on solo walks once we've left the house. Also, I no longer use the muzzle b for last pee once Ami and Wayne are b in the bedroom for the night.

Did get some encouragement in that direction last night.  Forgot bi had half a chicken leather in my pocket when I took Z'ev out of crate.  He was sniffing me with serious interest.  I told him "all gone". Multiple times.  He was just interested not a hint of aggression.  When I remembered, I have it to him.  Happy dog!

I know you are Amy I've been following your posts. I can't comment because I would be of no help, but I do follow your journey.

Look at that pretty face!

I wanted the blue of his eyes to show in that picture - its the same as the chicory flowers! Unlike Ami's ice blue.

I was going to ask you what kind of flowers those are! They're beautiful, so is Zev.

What is the age difference between Ami and Zev, Amy?

Z'ev is 6 and Ami is 4

Oh wow. So Z'ev's eyes will stay that color. I thought Zev might be younger because I noticed the blue in Kohdi's parti eye is getting more icy, just like Malukhai's blue eye got lighter with age too.

Sigh. Z'ev has regressed. Our maybe not progressed as much as we thought. Ami's food bowl was left out with a few forgotten pieces of kibble. Z'ev was trying to get them but couldn't with his muzzle. Wayne reached down to help him and Z'ev growled and lunged at him. So next day, i set up experiment.... food in the bowl, sitting on floor next to Z'ev, too hand feed. First 2 pieces went fine. Third piece, growl and lunged at me, no bite because of muzzle but his nails left 3 large bruises down my forearm

I'm getting weary. We seem to be stuck, with his increasing freedom, he's less tolerant of the crate, Wayne is not tolerant of the whining so the whole household is becoming tense.

My assessment is back to basics with structure as well as specific training with the bowl our of the crate. But my spirit rebels. His training sucks up so much of my time. Beginning to understand 5 grand for board and train. Not that we can afford to drop 5 grand on training at our stage of life.

Sounds really frustrating. You seem to have done a pretty good job so far though, im sure if you keep putting in the time & effort you'll get the results. I can understand if you're getting frustrated though, sounds like trying to do that kind of rehabilitation would definitely take a toll.

I think you are right on the second point, Amy, that Zev just hasn't progressed to the point you thought he did. Yet. I don't think Zev has regressed.

I realize it's emotionally and physically draining on you guys, but I also feel you guys are so very close to overcoming this thing. I think you've come too far to give up now.

Two things I want to ask, just out of curiosity, not because I can really help you at all, but maybe so I can have a clearer picture, of the entire picture the first question being...when Zev lunges like he did, what happens then? Not only what do you do, but what does he do? Second thing...when you were hand feeding him, the bowl was on the ground between you two? Or were you holding the bowl? If it was on the ground between you two, is that how you have been doing it?

Jimmy, the original hand feeding was through the bears of the crate. Then came back treat feeding, wearing the muzzle, in a sit, next to Wayne with Ami on the other side.

Way back, when he was lunging in the crate if I picked up food he had dropped, I ignored it and continued v to feed so he would learn lunging/snarling did not make me go away. With the current v issue, I will set up training, starting with him sitting in front of me, me holding the bowl, standing, and feeding kibble piece by piece. A time consuming PIA but needs to be done. We'll progress from there to bowl on the floor and trading up, kibble for cheese etc.

Holding the bowl just sounds normal to me. I have nothing to base that on though. With bowl on the ground, when you go to get a piece of kibble to give him, you are basically reaching into his space, I think. And where, at this point anyways, he feels he must lunge. You'll get past that part, of course, I guess that's why I agreed with your second point of "not progressing to the point you thought he had" rather than a regression backwards. First Wayne reached into his space (it's normal, I know! It was just a natural reaction from Wayne) then with the bowl on the ground, you were in effect, reaching into his space, so that's the part you gotta get past. But you already know that Don't give up Amy, I really feel you are sooooooo close.

That was my thinking Jimmy so today, I held the bowl and hand-fed from that - you can see the picture of the results in the hijack...

The toenails pic? That's from today or from Sunday? Edit: never mind, you said it happened today. Hmm, I don't really know what to tell you, and why I follow your journey but don't contribute,

The interest and simple comments give me fortitude to continue. Why i do continue, sometimes I don't know.

I can keep doing that, Amy I REALLY enjoy reading your little break through moments.

Kohdi stole a little loofah type sponge thing out of my shower yesterday, and when I saw him with it, he ran, LOLOL. He guarded it, did the growling and snarling and trying to sound all vicious (he did sound that way but I won't tell him that, haha) and each time I told him to give it to me, he snarled even louder. I stayed right there and sure enough, he hit me with his paw and then licked my face like "dang it, this shit is supposed to work!" Hahaha, I reached over and took the sponge thing and he "let" me. I don't know why he did it in the first place, but...in the end he didn't take it to the next level. I think with Zev, some more time to KNOW you, and both of you gaining that mutual trust and respect, he will turn out to be the dog you hoped for when you got him.

amymeme wrote:

The interest and simple comments give me fortitude to continue. Why i do continue, sometimes I don't know.

For the same reason that I didn't give up on Sasha - there is an alternative but it's not a good one. When she bit me the last time I was having serious thoughts about taking her to a "rescue" in Ft Davis knowing that they either wouldn't take her or would put her down as soon as I walked out the door - - and damnit I saw a better dog in there.

When I go to feed her now, I take her cup of food to the back room and if I'm not careful she'll trip me by being an excited, happy mutt right underfoot. We get to the back room and I point to the floor and get a "woof", then I get a play bow that turns into a down that turns into an excited wiggle until I tell her to "get it" ... Okay, it took way too long to get to this point, but now I'm not afraid that she'll take my arm off if I slip up (like the day I set the cup on the floor as I put her lead on her and she just looked at it and me)

You've done so much with him and I've seen so much improvement over time. You'd hate yourself if you gave up on him now ... he's a bratty "member of the family" now, isn't he?

Bratty. Yes he is. And an opera star, too. Songs to me most times I get him out of the crate. Well not yesterday. Yesterday, I kept his muzzle on in the crate until "that look" went away! I don't think he likes upping the ante on coexisting worn Ami. We are taking that, successfully I might add, to a new level. And man, can that boy pout. I thought he was going to crawl out of his skin being kept in place by command while Ami drank out of the water dish.. Ami's dish btw.

So - I need a passle of superbly, rock solid trained helper dogs.  And the keen perception of a highly seasoned dog trainer.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUOLDgDb-dQ

Or 5-7K for a board and train.

Brat bit me last night.  He's been doing so well.  I let him off leash with me around the property while I do my thing, yesterday her was play bowing to me.  He and Ami have a somewhat uneasy truce and can be loose together in the house, outside with supervision.

I was going to take him out for last pee before bed, I was tired, her rolled over in crate for belt rub.  I have a brief one then called him to come out, her rolled  back over.. I didn't want to play this game so figured if just take off his collar and that will be that.  As soon as I pulled on his collar too unbuckle he whipped around, growled and sunk a tooth into my hand.  About a third of an inch full skin rip down too subcutaneous fat.  Wayne said it would take a couple of stitches if I went to ED but I could steri-strip since it was after midnight and neither of us wanted to trek top the hospital.

Really wondering wtf I'm doing with this dog.

Weird.  Standard belief is that dogs live in the moment, cannot correct behavior after the fact.  Well, Z'ev is clearly not himself today.  Moping, dejected in the crate.  As if he's going to be thrown away again.  Both Wayne and I agree that he gets a pass on this one as I invaded his space immediately after waking him up.  Z'ev seems to sleep very deeply, be somewhat disoriented if I wake him from that deep sleep.  Add to that the we watch movies with the lights out and when I go to take him for last pee, I turn on the sunroom light.

The differential here is - neck/collar reactivity, waking/disturbing his sleep or trying to move a dog that doesn't want to be moved (I wasn't trying to move him, just reach across a large crate, stretching to get to his belt buckle style collar which needs to be tugged slightly tighter to undo the buckle.  Prior to last night, this is ALWAYS done first, while the muzzle is still on. And, outside the crate in a sit.)

Add to that, it was a stressful day yesterday. Kids and grandkids and Archer over for dinner.  Lots of noise, another dog in the house.

I should have known better.  All I cans say is...I was tired and wanted to go to bed.

What you're doing with him is Amazing, that's what you're doing with him!  And you did something out of the norm - er, well, did it different.

I don't have all the distractions you do - family, kids, etc - and Sasha had been with me over two years (if memory serves) when she sent me to the ER for stitches ... and she's still here.  Like your situation, there is only one alternative and she'd have to stepped way out of bounds for that - as I suspect Z'ev would have to.  

Where you are - where I was - it's difficult to see all the improvement when something slips (like invading his/her space) but from here I can see it when you write about the improvements in his behaviour and the stories from days that go exceptionally well.  Yeh, maybe we're a bit long in the tooth (well, at least *I* am) to tackle dogs like these - but really, if we don't, who will?

ETA: dogs live in the moment - I don't know who started that lie but it's one that I'll definitely disagree with. They *may* live in the moment, but they sure remember all the good and bad times / people they've been around!

This dogs living in the moment theory....I think is crap. I've had dogs all my life, and have had a lot of dogs. There have just been wayyyyyy too many times that this theory of living in the moment has been proven wrong.

Maybe something in the air, Amy. Kohdi got my mom yesterday. I saw it all happen, it looked like play but...don't know 100% only cuz there were toys involved. My mom also has a small chunk of skin tore into, but...she's got really thin skin that hurts EASILY. On Friday on my way home from work, I got Kohdi and Mishka some treats and new toys. Kohdi got this cool duck that even sounds like a duck, and Mishka got a little pink pig. My mom came over yesterday, and I had been throwing the toys around for the dogs in the backyard. Kohdi had his duck on the grass and Mishka wasn't too interested in her pig, so my mom tried to get her to play. As she crossed over the yard to get the pig to toss to Mishka, Kohdi jumped up, came bouncing over to my mom, jumped up on her, and "nipped" her arm, then went bouncing back to the grass, and did a play bow next to his duck. My moms arm has two puncture "holes" from Kohdi's teeth that not long after, started bleeding pretty good. When my mom reacted, I could tell Kohdi felt bad, it was really obvious. Later, the same night, he did the exact same thing to me when I was getting their harnesses to put on for their walk, I had put Mishka's on, was getting Kohdi's and he jumped up on me and did the same thing, but I didn't even have scratch marks so I'm not sure what to think about it all.

Jimmy, I have very thin skin.  Side effect of long term steroid use complicated by old age.  I can tear my skin reaching nto a cereal box!  Ami likes to get my attention by pawing me.  I almost always have claw marks in various states of healing .  At the moment my right arm has a long scratch where kitty jumped on me getting to her food next to 4 toenail scrapes from Ami, about 6" above the tooth mark from Z'ev. Which is truly not accidental...The crush injury really throbs.  The other arm has a huge bruise small tear from bumping the corner chair molding.

So...for your mom to have bleeding teeth marks may have less too do with aggression and more to do with aging skin.  Ami has been really playful, overly rambunctious and left teeth marks.  But very clear it was play, bouncing away with happy open expression.  Z'ev on the other hand, is accompanied by growl, lunge and retreat  with fear and submission, cowering.

I'm considering getting "Geri sleeves" to protect my arms.  Would prefer they be called tough skins or doggie arms rather than old lady sleeves but  what is is.

Annnnddd...The hand is infected.  The wound itself looks like a nothing.  The hand is hot, red and swollen.  With redness extending down my inner arm.  Started amoxicillin, will need to get yogurt tomorrow.

Hubby told me to rest the hand, I asked what he meant.  Said no wood stacking for a couple of days.  I asked what about vacuuming, folding laundry and dishes.  Her said now you're getting into a conflict of interest.

Amy, I wasn't insinuating that Zev bit you accidently, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. With Kohdi, <sighs> I pretty much let him get away with murder, it's my own fault he feels he can just jump on people in the first place. The bite, I personally feel it was accidental/play BUT I'm not exact,y sure what was going thru his head at the time. In my own mind, he wanted my mom to play with him instead of Mishka, however, I don't know that for sure, I'm only going with my gut on this one.

Get some rest, hope your hand gets better soon!