So this is the dreaded topic that I have been putting off out of fear of poop slinging from the rest of you. lol.   
 
 Miya will be 2 in November, and I really think she wants a dog friend. The cat just doesn't do it for her.   

I personally wouldn't mind getting a rescue. There are 2 reasons I'm leaning away from this. I can't find a husky rescue within 100 miles one way of me and my husband doesn't want an older than a puppy dog. I seriously went on the vast web looking. There are a couple of breeders within a 75 mile one way drive, however, I don't really see them as any better than the byb that I got Miya from. They make claims of AKC registered but leave no other info on health, contracts, etc. and are asking $350.00. Plus because of the distance, I wouldn't be able to go see them and interact with them like I did with Miya.

There is no question about wanting another husky. Miya plays best with other huskies. I enjoy the challenge, and I do like the exercise Miya gives me. They also have been my favorite breed all my life.

So here comes the potential poop slinging. Out of all the litters the byb I got Miya from, every dog excluding one per litter is currently tied to a tree on a 6 foot chain and their food is pushed to them with a stick. In my demented mind I feel that getting a pup from him again, does prevent one dog from having a miserable life. Is this wrong of me to think that way? People here for the most part see dogs as just dogs, if they are out of control, rather than giving them up they will give up and tie them to a tree. It breaks my heart, but I can't rescue them all, and I certainly can't tell them to treat their dogs better.

So here comes the next part of my dilemma. Husband informs me that Miya's parents are no longer being bred, good thing since they are a byb, not the best breed huskies anyway. I did love the temperament of the dam, she was very sweet and let me hold Miya at 12 days old. The set up is not horrible, they just don't have the health checks, papers, contracts, etc, yes they are byb's. Bugs the daylights out of me. So husband tells me that byb's son is now breeding, with one of the dogs being a brother or sister to Miya from a different litter. This is where we start having a very serious argument, and I had to school husband. Uggggg  

He proceeds to tell me that this sire and dam are higher content wolf/husky than Miya. I lost it on him.     He's telling me that parents are our next door neighbors parents. I'm rolling on the floor hysterical with laughter and anger. I tell him that IF Miya was husky/wd then it was from generations ago, she is a poor stock from 2 pure huskies. That next door neighbor's husky is further away from wd than even Miya. I told him that Zeke, is almost perfect in conformation for huskies, perfect height, weight, bone structure, than Miya. That I was done with dealing with ignorant people, that the only reason Miya's litter mates were tied to trees because people are dumb and think they have wolves for pets. When in fact they are huskies. I then asked him if real deal wolf mixes or pure huskies would cost $125.00? He finally gave in and understood that I knew what I was talking about.

So here is the thing, am I wrong for wanting a puppy from these byb's? It's not about money, or drive time. It's really about rescuing a puppy from being tied to a tree in the Texas heat the rest of it's life. I'm sorry for the length of this thread but I had to explain myself.

Let the poop sling, I think I'm ready.     

I totally get your dilemma with distance. I'm a good four hour drive from the closest real rescue and even farther from a good breeder. The only thing that hangs me up about going back to the byb if I were you is the definition of rescue. The dogs already on chains are really, in my opinion, the ones that need rescued. By getting from the breeder directly all I feel you would be doing is enabling them to just keep breeding because they know someone will take them. Yes, you would be saving that puppy from chain life but at the cost of supporting the breeder who shouldn't be breeding at all. But you do have experience with their dogs and they are close which is handy, but if you are getting from a truly good breeder that you've researched it will be like knowing what you are getting even if you don't get to meet the dog before taking it home. Yes, it's hard to wait and not meet them and basically take a dog sight unseen, but a good breeder is worth the wait and drive. Our next dog is going to come from a good breeder and I know when I start looking at breeders I'm going to find one that breeds for the temperament I want and I will have to probably drive several states to get it, but it will be worth it. I hope I didn't sling much poop. I certainly didn't intend to.   

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with getting from the same byb you got Miya from. There is the argument of supporting this breeder when he really shouldnt be breeding but in my opinion, it would probly take a few litters of puppies that are difficult to get rid of for him to get the hint, in the meantime, what happens to those poor pups. I'm also not as enthusiastic about getting a second dog from same parents as I once was. You know my situation with my last two Huskies...If not for genetic links, I wouldnt have lost both of them so soon in all liklihood. As far as distance...thats a tough one. My previous Huskies were flown here from North Carolina, but I think restrictions are getting tighter on dogs being shipped long distances, so I'm not sure very many breeders are offering that option anymore. However, although I got my current Huskies from a California breeder, it was still a 13 hour drive for me. With Kohdi, the breeder met me part ways (for a fee of course) which could be an option for you. Many breeders are accomodating that way. With Mishka, I did the entire drive, only cost about $100 in gas too, which is pretty good. Not gonna lie, it was tiring BUT it was also a lil extra bonding time between me and her. So if you have the time and energy, maybe you could make a weekend out of going to pick up your new pup if there is a breeder you like within a reasonable enough distance for you...goes for rescues as well, im pretty sure some of these people who foster a dog, would be happy to meet you part ways or something, OR a rescue facility you can make a weekend out of driving to. Miya will be so happy with whatever you decide

Jenn, no poop slung, thank you. Being here on this sight has made me much more aware of rescues and bybs. The huskies in this county that are tied to trees, their owners are unaware that they are doing a disservice to them, to these ignorant people there are just dogs. All of them look like Michael's Bodhi, and one like Miya, every litter it was the same, a woman traveled hundreds of miles to get that one that looks like Miya 2 years ago. I wouldn't be able to rescue any of them. Makes me sad and mad. I brought up getting a rescue or a puppy from a good breeder, and husband just doesn't understand. Miya's temperament is what we are looking for, she's very loving and laid back after a lot of hard work on my part, yet driven to be as my hubby says "down for whatever", haha. We have time,  maybe I can talk with him again.

Jimmy, The hardest part with Miya now is the unknown, I picture HD in her future, but maybe not. The second pup if we did go back to the byb, wouldn't be 100% related, so it could be worse or better, I'm an optimist, I always look for the good. It royally stinks, to be honest, I know the man who bred Miya's parents, I'm sorry to use this slang, but, he's country folk, sweet as can be, he's just misinformed, unknowledgeable, does things the way they always have been done. When I tell you this town is stuck in 1955, I'm not joking, internet is the only thing that keeps some of us in the know. Example, the store I worked for had a female night manager making $8.00/hour for three years no raise, promoted a bagger to night manager paid him $13.50 to start with no experience. It's a mans world here, and it's the same in every direction for hundreds of miles. I'm a stupid woman with a stupid college degree and I should be barefoot and pregnant. Yes these towns do exist. It sounds unreal, but I'm speaking truth here. My husband had me quit my job when he was promoted to get me away from the daily disrespect. He knew with my NY attitude I'd get in trouble eventually. LOL!! I love my little piece of heaven, wouldn't trade it for a million bucks, but it puts me in such a difficult bind of doing what's right by going to a good breeder and the old byb not understanding why I didn't go to him and keeping my mouth shut, and explaining to him what he is doing is wrong. Uggg, it's so incredibly hard.   

Thank you both for listening to me, and giving me advice. I'll squelch my fever by living vicariously through those that have new pups for awhile. I also hope that if I end up with another of the local byb's pups, y'all will still welcome me and her with happy open arms and not scold be too much.  
Renee

Renee, I'm not going to scold you or anybody else for going to a byb. You're giving a puppy a good, loving home. It sucks that there are many unknowns sometimes with byb's, but many rescues are the same way...and there are sometimes problems with reputable breeders as well. All we can do is hope for the best and give our pups the best life they can have, for whatever amount of time we have them.

Well, I gotta be honest, I disagree with going back to the byb, and I disagree that you are 'rescuing' a dog. I understand using that justification, or wanting to make yourself feel better about going back to that breeder, but the truth is, you are purchasing a puppy from a not so good breeder. If you want to rescue a puppy, then you should go to a rescue or shelter. Anything else, you are buying a dog. I'm not against breeding at all, and no judgement from me no matter what you decide to do. I think if you have to talk yourself into going to this person by using a justification then that tells you something.

Where abouts in Texas are you? I know of a great breeder in Midland, and they actually have a female puppy available currently.

I'm going to echo what Jen said on this. Please do not go back to this byb, where you think you're rescuing a puppy from a potentially bad situation, what you're really doing is giving this guy incentive to keep up with his unethical breeding practices. You even have said you worry about what medical conditions might be in Miya's future, by continuing to support this guy you are participating in the proliferation of all kinds of health issues into the Husky community. I've watched 2 very young dogs die of epilepsy in the last couple of weeks, and the "breeders" that those dogs came from are ignoring any attempts to notify them that they're producing dogs with horrible neurological conditions. I'm very much not anti breeder at all, but please don't support byb's even if you think you're doing it for altruistic reasons.

Jimmy, your notion of "it would take a few hard to place litters for him to change so why bother?" really is part of the problem. Yes, it does take time to shut these places down, but you have to start somewhere. One person will turn into two and so on, which will hopefully start the process of people turning away from breeders like this.

Renee, I came from one of those odd time warp kind of towns and still live in an area that isn't far from it, so I totally get what you are looking at as far as dealing with the people. My parents still only have dial-up internet. I love taking Kenzi to places like that because she stirs the pot. She's not perfect quality, but she is way higher quality than anyone in that town has ever seen and it really opens you up to educate people. You are actually in a position to really teach some people what breeding and breed standard really is by bringing in a good quality dog. You can waver peoples opinions of the dogs from that byb and possibly slow his business down. Maybe you could even stir the desire of the people who just chained their dogs up to look at them in a new light and want to seek out their true potential. Okay, so maybe that's a long shot, but if you're looking on the positive side the sky is the limit if you aren't afraid to put yourself out there and advocate to change the thinking of people. The worst that could happen is most likely nothing.

I never knew how much a health guarantee and health checks meant until I got Keno. That's why our next dog is going to come from a tested line. I hope Miya doesn't have HD in any degree.

Renee, plain and simple you're going to do what you're going to do and we're not going to treat you differently no matter what decision you make. Ultimately what you want is a healthy, sound puppy.

Obviously you already know why you shouldn't buy one from a byb or you wouldn't be making justifications for your actions to go and get another one from a place you know you shouldn't.

Yes, it is a twisted logic the whole saving a puppy from such and such life. I'm not saying that to be mean or negative, it just is what it is. In that situation you do spare that ONE puppy from said life outside on a chain but then you also pave the way for countless more to be sentenced to that same life you spared only one from. So is that one you took worth 1 or 2 or 10 or 20 or more doomed to that life on a chain because that byb keeps finding homes? That mentality is what starts this problem in the first place. If no one ever took any of their dogs off of them then they would not be producing more in the first place and thus the cycle is broken.

Okay, back on the topic of puppy fever. You want a puppy. Let's consider that further. What kind of puppy do you want?

Do you want something cheap and close by with little to no regard for health, temperament and conformation? If yes, then by all means you are free to go support a byb.

Do you want a puppy with a health guarantee from a reputable breeding kennel with a strong background in producing solid stock? If yes, are you willing to wait for the right puppy to come along, pay a little more for a better specimen, and either ship or travel to pick up said puppy? Many people ship puppies or fly out to the breeder and fly back home with their puppy under their seat on the plane which is far better than shipping a puppy via cargo. Going with a reputable breeder will likely cost more but as is often the case in life, you get what you pay for.

No one can make the decision for you. It is totally up to you what you want. If you want to support questionable breeding practices and get a dog from a nearby byb then you have every right. Also ask yourself if that is what you really want.

There are no husky rescues in the Charleston area but they do end up in the local shelters and rescues on a fairly routine basis, puppies too. Just a few months ago a pregnant stray female husky landed in one of our local rescues and all her puppies got adopted a few weeks ago. Just saying that sometimes you do find puppies of your breed of choice in non-specific shelters and rescues if you are patient and check in frequently.

I apologize if my ramblings are here and there. I have a toddler crawling all over me and the baby whining for attention on the floor.

I took absolutely no offense from any of you. It's a discussion that I started for a reason. To learn more than what I already know, and to figure out my best solution to a difficult problem. My husband doesn't get it. He doesn't understand why I don't want to support the byb. I read every thread on here about breeders, bybs. I went back to looking for a breeder in a nearby state, I really prefer to be able to go to the breeder at least once prior to getting my little bundle of joy. Now if I'm wrong in this next statement please educate me so I know the difference. In my situation a rescue from a reputable rescue service, will have nothing different than the current byb, no health guarantee and because typically you won't get a pup, so temperament is basically unknown. Miya is a dominate husky towards other dogs, even other huskies, she is not mean , but she'll put them in their place and they have to play the way she wants to play. Having a puppy with my supervision and training and because Miya is very gentle to small things, my cat, I think she'll do better with a pup.

What I want Val is Miya all over but from a good breeder, since my living situation makes me limited on things to do, i.e. showing, mushing, agility. She(yes I want another female) would be companion to Miya and myself. I do prefer working lines since we are outdoorsy. Also if my husband is promoted he will more than likely be transferred to Alaska, North Dakota, where mushing could turn into a possibility. Val I understand your babies crawling on you, although Miya is obviously not a child, I can not have children, having Miya and a new pup fills part of that void I have. You of all people must understand out of the dog breeds, huskies resemble a small child, in wanting to learn, their vocabulary, their ever changing attitudes. I don't want to get into the human adoption process, because like puppies, byb's for children exist here as well, it make me sick. Had I known what type of challenges I would have encountered here I would have never moved here. I am looked down upon for being educated, not having children, having my teeth, and being properly presentable when I go to town. I'm the Yankee they love to hate. I came here to this forum so I could talk to people who have the same passion and drive and for the most part education like myself.

Jen are you referring to this breeder Apache Run Huskies? They were the only ones who didn't have a lot of fancy dribble. Midland wouldn't be out of the question. It is closer than most cities for me, 3 hour drive. Trust me I have looked, I even looked to nearby states. Most breeders web sites do not mention health test beyond puppy shots and deworming. They do not mention lineage or pedigree. One actually boasted that they wait until age of 2 to start breeding. One had 8 sets of breeding pairs for their one kennel.

Jenn, thank you for understanding what country folk are and how you have to deal with them. I'm a small fish in a very hard male pond, they're rough and tumblers, women make no decisions. I will not make an impact on this community let alone this byb.

Meredith, I am fearful of Miya having seizures, after witnessing her reactions to comfortis, she has the propensity to have them. I wrote a thread about her sleep walking, because I was afraid it was a sign of seizures. I do not wish that on any one.

If you all don't mind working with me, help me better understand the real difference between working lines and show lines. I'd appreciate it. Like I said earlier I will live vicariously through the new owners here. We have a little over a year left and our house is paid for or my husband will be transferred, either of those situations will make it easier to go and get the best puppy. Going north will open up better breeders for me, paying our house off will enable me to have a ton of money to get whatever one I want. If i could get a great, well bred husky for under a thousand it fits our budget. I'm afraid that the way I want to do it, seeing the breeders, etc. it would cost me 2-3 thousand and not doable with our budget.

Thank you all. Again please point me in the information department on show vs working lines. My most difficult task is explaining all this to my husband. Let it be known, that my words here in as far as the justification of going back to the byb, is really because of Rob and not myself, if this decision was entirely up to me I would get a list of the best breeders in the country and pick one with no cost, or husband in mind.
Renee

You  are correct in that a rescue will have no guarantee of health or temperament. But it differs from a byb in that you aren't contributing to the bad practices and lining the pockets of byb's and instead actually are truly rescuing a puppy/dog in need.

My dogs have long been my baby substitutes also. I have this innate need to mother something so before my kids came along the dogs filled that need for me...and still do.   

The desire for a dog with good conformation is not strictly for those that intend to compete in the show ring. Proper conformation of the dog is important in their daily lives even for the average pet. Good conformation, proper movement and angulation all affect the dogs quality of life, comfort and ability to engage in recreational activities. A dog that doesn't move right can have difficulty moving or running or whatever the case may be and prevent them from enjoying life to the fullest. For example, you may not do any showing but say you decide you'd like to take up recreational bikejoring or sledding in Alaska if you moved there. Imagine now that you can't even consider taking something like that up for fun because the dogs conformation leads it to be painful to engage in such an activity.

Honestly, I don't like the divide between show vs working. I would strongly advise looking for a breeder that engages and proves their dogs in both conformation and working in harness as the breed was intended. Otherwise, what is the breeder really breeding for?

I wonder if you might satisfy my curiosity here. What is the reason you so strongly prefer to visit the litter before picking up your pup? I know it would be preferred but you seem especially set on that. Do you mind if I ask why? If you are set up with a good breeder they will be the best person to set you up with the right puppy for your home, situation and family. They know their dogs inside and out and they will get to know you very well in order to make sure they make the best match. I arranged to purchase Prince without meeting him until the day I drove out to pick him up and bring him home. He came from a great breeder, we talked a ton via phone and email to make sure he was the right match for us. Sure I would have loved to see him prior to interact with him and see him in action with my daughter but I knew from my interaction with the breeder that it was going to be a good fit. And he has proved to be an amazing, perfect fit in every way.

Finding a pet quality puppy from a good breeder does not have to break the bank. $600 give or take is not unreasonable for what you'd be looking for plus the cost of shipping or a single airfare to pick puppy up or gas + overnight hotel stay to pick puppy up would easily keep you at $1,000 or less depending on a lot of factors. And I am aiming high here with these numbers to be on the conservative/worst case scenario side. We paid $1200 for Prince and didn't meet him until the day we drove 2 hours each way (4 hrs driving round trip by myself while pregnant and with a toddler!) to pick him up from a breeder elsewhere in the state. And I'd do it all over in a heartbeat.

I guess you also need to consider what you both are willing to sacrifice as far as preferences (like do you have to see the litter in person before committing?) and how much total are you willing to spend (purchase price + transport) to help narrow down your options.

And we may not be as backwards as some places but I swear this area is not very educated...to put it nicely. I cannot even read a single newspaper without picking out multiple blatant spelling and grammatical errors. We have moved to the more affluent part of town and thus surrounded ourselves by more educated people but we do have to leave our neighborhood sometimes!  

Val, Thank you for finding the time. I have read many, many of your threads. Our newspaper comes out once a week 12 pages total front and back, and spelling and grammatical errors up the wazoo.   
The children here are not taught to sign their names, I would cash checks, when I was working and 80% were not signed only print signatures, old and young alike.

My desire to see the pup and/or breeder is just something I have been accustomed to. Since I was old enough to give my 2 cents on the choosing of dog or cat, all but one, I have seen in person prior to getting. It's a comfort thing. When we got our Siamese, another byb story ugg, they had 22 cats total in the house 3 adult the rest kittens. Kitana crawled up my husbands pant leg and curled up and napped in his lap. She was the one we picked. I have extreme knowledge of cat byb/mill breeders, this is nothing new to me. We lived near Tampa, Fl for 16 years, it's rampant to say the least. My husband has a warped view of byb's/mills vs good breeders. His idea or justification is that the good breeders will find good homes, the bybs wont, and in the case of mills they get sent to puppy/kitty stores and if they don't sell them they go to spca and eventually euthanized. We encountered an excellent Russian blue cat breeder, when ours was dying from kidney failure, he offered to let us come to his home and check his place out. My husband later told me, all of his kittens will find a good home, no one will pay $500 for a cat and give it a bad home. You see what I'm dealing with. The kitty mill went down like this, friend worked at pet store, Rob wanted to get a blue eyed cat for me for Valentines day, friend said I have one. We go to look at this kitten and it was unsound, it hated people, it didn't want to be held, this is a 6 week old kitten something was wrong with it. I said no. Friend says, well I have a Siamese that the breeder couldn't sell because it didn't conform to breed standard, she's a little older, about 12 weeks old, and if we don't sell here, she'll go to SPCA, it was a kill shelter. I took one look at her and fell in love, she wasn't Siamese, she was a Ragdoll. People are mean, stupid and just plain money hungry.

 The few breeders I have seen on the web want $850 with no mention of hip and eye certification, they do boast how they are registered with the AKC so therefore they are excellent breeders, their words not mine. Their site is filled with so much crap, I had a hard time navigating, although their prices were very easy to find. One that I mentioned earlier had 8 sets of breeding pairs. This is one reason I would like to see the place. I also want to see pups, I know from reading, that pups are sold as first deposit first pick. So that also makes it more undo-able. I guess I have that hands on approach mentality, although I guess I could change my views for the right pup. Another thing I found interesting is that many stated that they don't breed for eye or coat color. Hmmm. One breeder had a female that was so far from the breed standard I stopped looking, from a distance Miya can pass for breed standard, you'd have to measure and weigh her to know the basics that she doesn't. This female was overly wooly and had a crazy curved tail and from the pic over height and weight for standard(I was thinking she was a mal).
 So money, good question, I don't want to do the fly thing, it was 108 yesterday, way too hot, Abilene airport is a regional, still 60 miles away. So a drive within 3 hours one way. I have no problem paying up to $850 for the dog, excluding trip costs, or a thousand total. I would want to see parents of the dogs, and past litters, because I would like one similar to Miya, I like the grays. Seeing on the internet is fine, but I really like the atmosphere of seeing the family of the dogs and interaction between mom and pups, does that, make more sense? I also prefer brown eyes, but that really is not even in my top reason for a pup. Just a preference. Coat color, short coat and sleek look are more important to me, with a working structure, seems working lines look bigger than show lines? Please correct me if I'm wrong.  

I hope Jen get's back to me on the Apache Run breeder, if it's not then the one she made reference to. That may be my best option.
Renee

Just real quick a clarification then I'm back to just being a voyeur.

When a breeder says they don't breed for coat or eye color that's because those traits are not relevant to the breed standard. So, for example, if a buyer has to have blue eyes, said breeder won't sell to them because the priority is on a frivolous trait and not a confirmation to the breed standard.

Cheers

Yes, I was referring to Apache Run. I have not dealt with them personally, but they purchased a puppy from a breeder that I do know. Their young female, Snoebear's Buttons and Bows at Apache Run, is from a breeder in PA. Snoebear is extremely, extremely picky about who they sell show puppies to, so Apache must have met certain high ethical standards to purchase from Snoebear. A dog from them will be worth waiting for.

I too prefer the in person thing, but like you say, I will do what it takes for the right dog. Even if flying via cargo is not an option in summer or dead of winter, you could opt for it during milder part of the year. Granted, I am not familiar with TX weather so I don't know what spring, fall, and winter is like there. And don't forget that a puppy can fly in a small kennel under your seat so extreme outside temps don't matter since your pup would be inside the airport and plane with you at all times...that is if you were to consider flying out to pick up and flying back with the pup. Just throwing it out there as an option if you wanted to consider something outside of driving distance. Heck, you could make a mini vacation/road trip for something a state or a few states away.    It is what you make it. I was looking at an AKK in a rescue in Brooklyn, NY and even thinking of making a vacation out of a trip to pick up the dog. But then the rescue wants to only adopt him out locally.   

Working sibes are not bigger than show. Generally, and this is quite an generalization here, I consider working sibes to have somewhat shorter coats, leaner build, and much more drive/energy. On the flip side, I generally find show lines to have a more plush coat, stockier build, and less drive/energy. For example, a show line sibe may be content to be a couch potato most of the day with a mere 1-2 hours of moderate exercise per day while a working line sibe may require 4+ hours minimum of heavy exercise just to keep them from becoming holy terrors and destroying everything out of boredom. And as with anything, these are broad generalizations and not meant to be a blanket description. You will always find exceptions to the rule in any given scenario. Because of the leaner look, which sometimes equates to longer looking legs, that may give the appearance of the working line dog being larger/taller when in all actuality it is not.

Good luck with the endeavor, I think I will bow out now, I have a family that needs feeding.

Val, I know you were bowing out, but thank you. I thought I understood the working line vs show line, I do, and was right on with what I am looking for. Miya has a working line look, with show line energy. Makes sense, even though poor stock, her mother would be considered work line and her father a show line.

Jeff, I didn't clarify my statement about eye/coat color, agreed a good breeder will stay away from someone who wants a pup with blue eyes, etc. These breeders are good to point out this, however they never mention anything about medical tests and why they are breeding to better the breed. This particular breeder, imho, is a high end byb, why? 8 sets of breeding dogs at $850 per pup.

Jen, thank you!! Clearly you all must think I have a little bit of knowledge, of course came from here, but I did recognize a good breeder. They don't provide a lot of info, but I don't think they breed a lot either. I will spend some time and see if I can communicate with them and see what they have available, etc. They were the only ones in Texas, NM, OK, AR that I felt comfortable enough with and wanting to contact them. So yay for me, I know more than I thought.  

I have been very lucky so far with hubby and the byb, since we started talking about a puppy they have produced 2 litters with no light colored pups, so my husband has had little interest. I'm going to read up on Apache Run, Jen did you post the kennel name that they used near you? So I can take a look at their pups as well? My last question is this: the last dog we had when still living at home, was a German Shepherd, I believe that AKC was way strict on registering dogs in the 80's. Bo's sire and dam were bred once which produced his litter. Sire and dam were 5 years old when bred, and had all medical screenings done including HD screen, he at 10 years old showed signs of HD and at 12 or 13 was put down because of HD. Are test better today than back then? Or was it just something that just happened? He wasn't a show or working dog, he was just a companion with a very high end line, they would have been easily a $1000 dog, with the medical test, registration papers and the lineage that he was produced from. Just wondering.

Thanks all,
Renee

@ Meridith, you quoted me (or my notion) as saying...

blueeyedghost wrote:

Jimmy, your notion of "it would take a few hard to place litters for him to change so why bother?" .

...when that is not at all what I wrote. At first I thought maybe I typed it in a way that I was misunderstood, but then I thought, well why didnt she just use the handy quote button and quote my words exactly instead of adding and re-arranging words? In any event, I'll try to clarify what I meant for you and everyone else.

I don't believe simply being a backyard breeder is enough to keep someone from buying their dogs, or even shutting someone down...a BYB, or even a breeder, should be shut down for breeding unhealthy dogs knowingly. From what I read in Renee's posts, he hasnt been breeding unhealthy dogs. Renee herself, from what I see and have read in her posts, has a husky that lives a normal husky life. She expresses concern over her Miya developing HD, but doesnt say why other than she doesnt have a written health guarantee and papers. While I see his dogs being tied to a tree and food bowls pushed to them by a stick, repulsive, I also took into consideration Renee's words that the man is "sweet" and "old". When one is old/er, they are not as nimble on their feet and its quite possible that getting hurt by the dogs at feeding time is not an option for him(my mom, who isnt really "old" but definitely not that nimble anymore, had her collarbone broken by my current boy husky, Kohdi. It wasnt on purpose, he's still young and was even younger when it happened but she was walking him and he pulled, she lost her balance, and went down. While being treated for the injury, she learned osteoporosis was setting in and her bones are getting more brittle.) The man was also brought up in a different time and in a place where everything seems to be a lil more primitive than most of us are used to, chaining a dog to a tree might be considered very normal to him. Renee did say he was very sweet so I don't really believe he thinks he's being cruel to his dogs. I dont think he should be breeding anymore though.

I do agree with you that things have to start somewhere regarding breeders that arent breeding ethically, I just dont think shutting down BYB's are where it starts. You can't "paint all BYB's with the same brush", just as there are some who breed unhealthy, not quite the "picture perfect" huskies, I'm also sure there are plenty of people in here, and "out there" that have beautiful, healthy Huskies obtained through BYB's, rescues, and the traditional breeders. The change has to start with the ones knowingly selling unhealthy puppies. I bought my last two huskies from a "reputable" breeder, paid a lot of money for them and received two beautiful dogs with a health guarantee, papers, and the usual HD, eye screenings, etc...I did my homework on the breeder and she interviewed me extensively as well. I thought for the next 15 yrs or so I would be the happiest guy on earth, these dogs were AMAZING...I wouldnt have traded my time with them for anything in the world. But, as each got to 2 yrs old, they started having seizures, and all those great times with them afterwards, had those awful gaps of emergency vet visits, online researching anything and everything I could find on Epilepsy for hours upon hours, not sleeping some nights and just sitting there watching them sleep for hours on end just in case they seizured again and I could be ready for it...and always wondering if this would be the last time...to the point of sitting with Malukhai each nite before I went to bed, telling him how much I loved him and if he wasnt there in the morning, to know he was my everything and I would never, ever, forget him. The breeder was informed they were having seizures, she was informed that they passed away. She did nothing except continue to breed that father that both my dogs had in common. I can do nothing that I know of. And to me, its breeders like this, and genetic issues like this, whether it be a BYB, or a breeder, where the changes need to start.

Sorry this is so long...I get carried away sometimes...But from what I read throughout this thread, nothing really screamed "don't buy another dog from this breeder"...but I agree that just buying one because one thinks its being "saved" is not a good thing.

@Renee, couple questions...if you don't mind.
Is there a reason you think Miya could develop HD besides not having any health screenings/documents?
Were there ever any papers/documents on his original dogs? like...was it ever asked by you? and by the same token, did you ever inquire as to why he feeds the dogs as he does/keeps them chained? like...do they maybe have a habit of running away (don't misunderstand, I'm not saying its a valid reason, but maybe more that at his age he can't go chasing them) or something?
How many dogs do you estimate he has and how are their living conditions as far as cleanliness etc...? And has anyone ever reported him that you know of for the conditions his dogs live and/or any health issues any current owner has with a puppy from him?
There are plenty more questions one can ask, but the key is to ASK them, especially from a BYB, but goes for breeders as well, until you know and feel comfortable with whatever decision you make.

Jimmy, I used HD as an example As far as I know, besides myself and Miya's siblings, 3 other owners with same parents that are older and these dogs are healthy, just not breed standard(height and weight).

The dogs tied to trees are people who bought from the byb. The byb has an outside kennel with a cover for mom and pups, and an all enclosed extremely large dog house structure to protect them even more. The male was separated from the mom and pups, he was tethered outside for me to see. I failed to ask questions, this man is clearly in his late 60's early 70's, runs a business from home, besides the dogs. They had 2 litters a year and just the 2 grown dogs and one semi adult from a litter or two before Miya. Miya's father was shot, ignorant towny thought he was a wolf, duh? Black and white, curly tail, blue eyed wolf, whatever, this is what I put up with. Coyotes run rampant here, no wolves.

No one has ever reported him, he is considered one of the good guys, my neighbor runs the Humane Society and told her where we got Miya, she thought it was a good choice, meh, I don't necessarily agree, but ok. His wife is a nurse assistant, so they are not bad people, just not aware of breeding standards, nor the breed itself.

I never asked for pedigree papers for one reason only, he told us mama was 75% wolf, 25% husky and daddy was 75% husky, 25% wolf. Clearly he was misrepresented as well. Miya's father imho would be breed standard for show line and mother slightly off breed standard for working line(she looks just like Miya). I knew from looking at them he was incorrect with father, and I felt mother could have some wolf but not anywhere the percentage he suggested.

I do know a woman who got the Miya look a like from 2 or 3 litters prior, that photographs her husky and has used her as an ambassador, where not a clue, but she did show me the pics and is very mellow like Miya, but a terror as a pup and worked with her to be this great dog.

So health questions are just that, questions, no one has mentioned any issues at all except most can't handle a crazy husky puppy, which we all know it's the owner not the dogs fault, learn to train and exercise your dog and they will behave. Most of these owners are scared because they think they have a 50% wolf dog, when in fact it's really just a husky, who needs training. They were cute puppies got to have one and they get mouthy or nippy and boom tied to a tree because they are vicious wolves, hence tied to a tree and bowl of food pushed to them with a stick.

Miya's mother is a sweet dog, and as far as female dogs who just had a litter was incredibly sweet, she walked up to me and gave me nose rubs and when I held Miya at 12 days old she continued to nose rub me. The old man walked into their kennel without issue. I think I was overwhelmed by how good everything was and failed to ask questions. When the old man found out it was me wanting one of his pups he informed everyone wanting one I got first pick of the litter, without deposit, when others did put a deposit on one. It was an incredible experience, especially since I did have a little experience with reputable breeders in the cat world.

I was actually sad to hear that he was no longer breeding his pair, for obvious reasons, he can't. This was before I came to this forum. I want everyone to understand I don't want to support bad breeders in any way, shape or form. Besides not medically testing his breeding pairs, he is not a bad breeder. I honestly trolled over a hundred breeder websites in the last 2 days, excluding one, they all did something that I felt and believe you all would feel, are doing something wrong. To me breeding at 2 years old, have 8 litters at the same time or having 3 different breeds breeding at the same time is no better than what this byb is doing. Not one mentioned any of the medical tests, and the ones breeding at 2 years can't even do these tests, since if I'm understanding right a sibe needs to be over 5 to have proper tests.

I honestly don't know which way I will go. I'm going to look at the good breeder I found and Jen mentioned, they are not too far away. Besides that, there are really two other realistic ways to go for me, wait another year and a half and fly north to get a great one from a great breeder or go to the byb's son who is the current byb of huskies in this area. Ugggggggg I'm gonna hope they keep producing dark huskies to keep our interest at bay, since we prefer a lighter husky, like Miya, and prefer a working line rather than a show line. We don't care about eye color. In fact all we really care about is a healthy husky that is light in color, having a good breeder makes the decision easier because they will health guarantee.

Renee

I think there is some confusion here in terms of what a 'working' line dog is.

First of all, soundness is just as important, if not more so in working line dogs. Working line, purebred Siberians are NOT larger than the standard. Yes, they may have less coat, and a more lean build, longer legs and lighter bone, BUT they are still within the height and weight standards. I am not as familiar with the working/mushing community as I am with the showing community, but they care very much about the future and health of their breeding lines. If you want a true working line Siberian, you may have to fly to another state to get one. Capellalayla is very involved in mushing, so perhaps she can speak more accurately to the qualities/differences she sees between working and show lines. I also asked Niraya to pop in (breeding moderator) as she is very well versed in both show and working lines.

Although I ended up with a show line dog, I generally have come to prefer a balanced dog. Something like I imagine Siberians were like before they began to split between working and show lines. There are extremes in both the show and working communities, not to mention racing. In my opinion, there is a difference between a working type dog and a racing type dog.

I do commend you for doing your research and putting a lot of thought into this decision, and you will, of course, be welcomed here and I will want to see many, many puppy pictures no matter where you end up getting your puppy.

Does the byb you are referring to work his dogs? Do they mush and pull? Does he aim to produce a better working dog with each litter bred? What is his purpose of breeding? If he does not work the dogs, and work to breed closer to the standard with each generation, they are not working line dogs, they are simply badly bred, out of standard Siberians.

That's not to say Miya is a bad dog in any way! Obviously she is quite beautiful, and has a wonderful temperament that you are happy with. Just remember, that as awesome as Miya is, she is one dog, and she is the way she is because of your hard work and influence. She will also have a pretty big influence on any puppy that you bring home. So don't limit yourself by thinking that having a dog related to her will mean that you will automatically get a Miya clone. Huskies are pretty awesome, no matter where you get them from.

BYB or bad breeder, imo, does not mean one does not take good care of their dogs. To me a BYB or non reputable breeder is someone breeding dogs for no other purpose than to make money and/or produce pets. Lots of BYBs, non-reputable, "hobby" breeders, etc. can produce very healthy dogs with no genetic issues. Does it mean that what they are doing is right, to me, the answer is no.

Proving their breeding stock in some form or another along with the health testing for eyes, hips, etc. and is involved in the breed club is what makes a reputable breeder. Working their dogs to some degree, whether in conformation, racing, agility, etc. shows that they care enough for their dogs to give them those outlets and that they themselves want to be involved more in their dogs lives.

We have a kennel here that, besides that they produce way too many puppies and possibly breed too young, takes AMAZING care of their dogs. This past spring they had 5 litters at one time. Their waiting list is 50+ people long. Would I recommend them to anyone? No. Why? Because they aren't breeding their dogs for the right reasons. They have out of standard dogs and woolies, etc. But do their dogs have any health issues? No. Do their dogs have amazing temperaments? Yes.

Just because they hit the mark on a few points does not equal someone I am willing to support.

That was long and kind of all over the place, but justifying to yourself that this is a nice person who means well isn't always the best reason to choose a breeder to get a pup from.

Phew!  It's been awhile, forum!  

Anyway,  I was asked to stop by.  In the grand scheme of things, ideally there would be no split and no difference between a "working"  bred Siberian and a "show"  bred Siberian. But over the course of x amount of decades and with the acceptance of the breed into the AKC for conformation dog show purposes we now have a split (which is common among any working breed of dog).  It happens because people who work their dogs have to place a higher value on certain aspects of their animals (I. E.  Feet size and shape,  ear and eye size/shape,  length of leg,  [coat length in brackets only because this mattered more back in the old days where as now they have jackets for the dogs] etc) Where as people who showed (but did not work) had the opportunity to place higher emphasis on other things (aesthetics mostly I. E. Head shape,  coat and eye color etc) that were less related to working ability.

While you can sometimes physically tell a "working" bred animal from a "show"  bred one - sometimes you can't at all.  As was already stated most working Siberians are longer legged compared to their show counterparts who are not and (show siberians) also tend to have much more coat.  Let it be known however that a shorter coated Siberian does not equal a working bred Siberian.  Just as a heavier coated dog does not equal a show bred one.  There are exceptions and this is just one example.  

lani has show bred working dogs and also has working bred dogs.  I have a show line/working line bred girl and a amish bred girl.  The pedigree behind mechta tells me what is behind her and what to expect out of her.  Just like Bella's pedigree tells me what is behind her and what I can only guess at as I don't have an in depth history on her as I do with mechta - who I also have her breeder to answer any questions I could or would or have had.  It is a benefit of going to an ethical and good breeder.  That breeder will be there for the entire life of that puppy- not just someone trying to make a couple hundred bucks by dumping off a puppy on someone.

If Jen wants to she can post pictures of my mechta along with some actual show bred dogs and working bred dogs to show the similarities and differences. (as I am on my phone and this was hard enough to type out as is lol)

Hope this helps some and I'll try to answer any questions if they pop up and are directed at me.

Mechta:



Mechta's Sire, working line:



Mechta's Dam, show line:



More typical 'racing' line:



Typical show line siberian (6 month old puppy):



Also, look at Layla's scrapbook, and Yukon (AMB), they are from different litters from the same breeder that breeds nice, balanced working dogs.

https://www.itsahuskything.com/t11323-52-weeks-of-layla-updated-7-7-14?highlight=layla

https://www.itsahuskything.com/t11666-yukon-s-adventures-born-9-17-2013?highlight=yukon

Oh, and also, proper hip and eye testing can be done at 2 years old.

Was just looking over this thread and I just wanted to comment on how respectful and informative everyone has been. I think a lot of that is because Renee was willing to ask questions and get feed back so she could have more info and make an informed decision. But I also Think the people chiming in Jen, Meredith, Valerie and everyone else. Have been fantastic about just stating the facts as they see them and not making anything personal or slinging mud. Made me happy to see. Good job everyone.

I'm side stepping for a moment, still looking at Layla and digesting this A.M.'s posts.

Elise, I can't agree with you more. I read all the old threads on this subject, although this has dived around other areas a far as differences in husky lines. I was so afraid that this would become a sling fest, which was never my intention. I wanted to understand things better. The last couple of days has really opened my eyes, and truthfully gave me a much better understanding of what I am looking for and a deeper love and passion for this breed.

 When we moved here we both knew we were getting a dog, no question I was picking the breed since I was the one who would do most of the training. I sat on the fence between German Shepherds and Huskies, because that was what I grew up with. I chose the husky for their unique look and friendly attitude vs most GSD's look pretty much the same and they have a more guarding attitude. I wanted a companion, and a dog that would get my butt up and exercise, clearly I understood the differences between the two.

This thread has enriched me a great deal. I definitely knew people were showing huskies, I had no idea what a huge working community there is for huskies(coming to this forum made me much more aware of that), but this thread also gave me that "Aha" moment. The breeder of the GSD we had as a teenage was truly trying to better the breed, they bred a show line with a working line, thinking they would get a delicate dog without the sloping back that was larger. Yes they did succeed. I wanted to stay away of the GSD because I wanted people to be able to approach me without fear, and be able to pet my dog. I got that, although as we all know people can be afraid of huskies.

We have a ton of room here, although I am sad it's not really a place for a husky to live, it's just too hot here. I also have a lot of time to devote to Miya and eventually our second. I loved training her. I discovered that Miya, although not from the greatest pedigree, is a working line dog with a more show line attitude. That is what I'm looking for. Companion first, but for our 4 months or so of fall, winter and spring we can work.

I want to be able to respond to the earlier posts, I just wanted to THANK everyone who has posted, gave insight and more importantly made this a mature conversation rather than a flaming bash fest on someone who simply asked questions. My husband told me when I signed into the forum, "Never post a controversial topic, unless you want no one to talk to you and have your feelings hurt", I never received either one from this potential hot topic.

Renee