I wanted to get a take on Cesar's method of teaching. Has anybody tried or had success with it?

Oh boy. This can be a rather controversial topic among dog owners... I haven't tried it myself because I disagree with his basic premise that all misbehavior is dominance related. Maybe some others with more experience with it will chime in though.

His methods and theories have been disproven and have been shown to increase aggression. "Dominance" "alpha" "submissive" and the like have all been completely abused and misused to the point where they do not mean what they actually should mean. Your dog does not want to take over you or your house, he doesn't solicit attention because he's "dominant" and doesn't do things to "challenge" you as "alpha." Dogs are dogs and we are not dogs. They understand that.

There is nothing wrong with being a respected member of the household who provides boundaries, training and play. But who goes out the door first, who can shove their hand in the dogs bowl, and whatever else he does is irrelevant and makes the owner look and act like a giant ass.

My  

As Kristina says, dominace theory has been disproven and most obedience classes are based on positive reinforcement. I use positive reinforcement 90% of the time and the other 10% is kind of a grey area. For example, I hate begging so  if we are eating dinner and she is sitting close to me begging by staring at me, I will cover her eyes to annoy her to point of wanting to get away from me. If she continues to beg from an arms length away then I will say "go to your mat" or "go lay down" if that doesn't work then she goes in her kennel. Another example is loose leash training. shes pretty good about it but on occasion when she is lunging forward like a lunatic and I have no treats,  will give a correction by quickly tugging the leash back and stop walking to let her know she isn't going to get anywhere acting like that. I also won't let her leave the apartment first because she's a door dasher, on the way in I will let her lead.

I am a strict parent with a lot of rules but I'm careful not to put a wedge in my relationship with her. In fact she still follows me around like she did when she was 8 weeks old. She's not allowed on the couch, to beg, to door dash, counter surf or lung forward with a collar on. She still loves me and is better behaved than other puppies her age. I guess what I'm saying is do what is best for you and your dog and if positive reinforcement doesn't work, try something else.

I have seen some people try it and for some it works others it doesn't.

Personally I do not see myself as ALPHA nor is my dog out to dominate me but I do see myself being the leader/adult/teacher and my pup is the follower/kid/student. I have the responsibility to do right by him show him my boundaries, affection, fun times and respect and hopefully in time I can receive the same from him. I think it's entirely possible to build a bond based on mutual respect but as human's we need to really work on understanding a dog's language so we don't end up completely ignoring the red flags like some owners.

But who goes out the door first, who can shove their hand in the dogs bowl, and whatever else he does is irrelevant and makes the owner look and act like a giant ass. wrote:

I do these things but not to prove my dominance or Alpha-ness (if that's a word lol) I do it for an extra layer of safety. I walk out most doors first (mainly the front door of houses and pet stores, apartments) because if there is an immediate danger while exiting I want to be the one to spot it first and to be in harms way not my dog. I used to play with his food and put my hand in the bowl when he was younger and at times when he is older because children do come to our house. We have explained the rules with the dog but some kids don't listen. So it's nice to know he is comfortable with people or even cats near his food and there is no threat to it he will get his full meal. This is just an extra layer of security in case one kid acts like an idiot because at the end of the day I am held accountable for his actions. So if it makes me look and act like a giant ass, at least I'm a safe one lol.

Thanks for all of the inputs, I have been a big believer when watching him on TV, and have adopted the "SHHHT" method which for me works extremely well. I am very careful to use that training, although it seems to be very effective when she starts to climb our 8 foot privacy fence. Which she doesn't even think about anymore, even when there is a squirrel running across the ground and up the fence. She just looks at it and then goes another direction. We also have a little garden then a few "SHHHT's" and she doesn't even go around it anymore. Now I do Rollerblade with her for about an hour per day, she has done a great job at pulling me in the beginning but with a sudden accident; our neighbor opened his truck door while we were passing and she stopped. I zig and zagged as quickly as I could to miss her and stop, but I got her foot. She didn't yelp, cry or even limp, but now lately she stays to the side of me and I have to encourage her to keep up with me... This will be another topic maybe some advice on.

She seems to be very happy and stays by my side at all times, when I call her she comes right to me, now by far I understand from the years I have had Huskys, never ever ever take them off leash. She is Tagged with PetTracker as well. I like to keep up on her activity level and if she would ever get out I can track her with the GPS.

Thanks again for all of the input.

My personal thoughts on Cesar Millan have certainly evolved.  Basically I just love theory and any concerted philosophy so his approach and his contributions to things that pertain to dogs have intrigued me and I have undoubtedly gained some useful information from him.  

People either really love him or really hate him, but in either case, that just shows you how relevant he is.  We don't love/hate people/things that are irrelevant.  He and his critics should be taken with a grain of salt.  I think the trick is to take in his entire system and train of thought, process it and criticize it, and then filter out the useful parts and/or the parts that fit into the values that you have for yourself and your dog.  He shouldn't be dismissed wholesale.  

For example, one of his major premises is that much misbehavior can be attributed to lack of exercise and people utilizing the wrong order of operations in terms of their dog's needs.  If you don't properly drain your dog's energy they will do so on their own at you and your stuff's expense.  If all you do is baby talk your dog and shower her/him with affection then you are not properly meeting your dog's needs.

Who---Husky owners especially---can refute this?

I think people exaggerate the prominence of Dominance in his entire system.  He focuses a lot more than people give him credit for on energy/exercise, general dog psychology vs. human psychology, and the order of operations used in how we interact with our dogs.  A fundamentally major stream of thought for him is criticizing how humans treat dogs too much like other humans and not enough like animals and there are some very valuable lessons to be learned from this when you understand this stream of thought in the larger context of what he is talking about.  In general, dog behavior aside, we in this culture have a lot of misconceptions and anxiety about dominance/submission.  This is unfortunate because much of what is involved in dominance/submission has to do with trust and respect and I don't think any dog owner (especially responsible ones) can deny that they want their dog to trust/respect them.  

This gets lost when people watch a 12 second clip of Cesar "hitting" a Malamute or "choking" a Rottweiler.  We are all about sound bites, highlights, and reasons to panic.  

That said, for me personally, I too disagree that issues of dominance/submission are woven into everything our dogs do, and I disagree that dogs think we are dogs and thus feel this constant struggle to take leadership over our pack.

I do think that many peoples' dogs do not respect them or trust them and it is very evident that many people are not meeting their dogs' needs in the way they need to be met.  Cesar calls this humanizing a dog, well take that for what it's worth.

Cesar is very polarizing but it is often evident that people who are in disagreement about him are confused about what in fact they are in disagreement about.  

Let's say a dog does behavior X (could be jumping up on you, stealing your food, chewing your sofa, pulling on leash, bolting out the door in a split second) and that X is bad, the dog should not do X because it is dangerous or annoying or rude or embarrassing or disrespectful or whatever.  

The only real disagreement people are going to have with Cesar is WHY the dog is doing X, not whether or not the dog should do X.  The whether or not part is going to be agreed upon generally.  The WHY will not be agreed upon, and perhaps therefore the way in which the behavior is corrected may be different in some cases but will in many cases also be agreed up, or be exactly the same.  These corrective methods will almost always revolve around redirection of energy and trust/respect (leadership)...it could be based on dominance/submission or bribery with treats or expressions of verbal praise and play rewards...but these all revolve around trust/respect (leadership).  

So if it is agreed upon that X should not be done and for the most part correcting X will be based on the same principles if not on the same methods as well, then the WHY is really frivolous, kinda irrelevant.  You don't need to agree that dogs are fundamentally pack animals striving for hierarchies or dominance and submission and pack leadership to get some value in some of Cesar's work or his ideas.  You can cut the WHY X out and still be left with some really useful and valuable information and protocol.  

Anyway, just wanted to play devil's advocate and try to depolarize things a bit.  

Cheers

I don't watch Cesar much but when I do he tends to talk about energies and this is a portion of his actions that I use pretty successfully. Our neighbor's old dog was case and point for how a person's energy and attitude can control a dog. She was always crazy hyper and would run over people when let loose so when she was out and I was going to have to be out with her I would always just spend some time with her touching her calming talking to her in soothing tones and she would totally mellow out and not drive me nuts, but she would still drive my husband crazy. It's basically focus training, using your energy and demeanor to bring them to focus. I do believe it's what works for what dog though because I know if Cesar used the whole "SHHT" thing on my old dog he would get the crap bit out of him.

Ha, that's funny Jenn Yes, also one of his most fundamentally major premises: your energy and your body language will be reflected back at you by your dog. Calm people tend to have calm dogs, nervous people tend to have nervous dogs...give affection to your dog when she/he's scared, you create a scared dog. Show leadership and confidence to your dog when she/he's scared, you create a confident assertive dog.


There is a thread going now about guests coming over to visit and puppies going crazy. This is central to this issue.

Also this brings up an important point to keep in mind: the overwhelming majority of his show deals with rehabilitating dogs with severe problems created by humans who have neglected them or mistreated them by not meeting their needs.

He's not training dogs. He deconstructing and rechanneling their imbalances.

Jeff and Jenn,
Awesome posts, very interesting and I agree 100%, since I have been a calm type person, and have a lot of structure, (I don't think everything is black and white, but just have an eye on them at all times), I make sure that whatever is not accepted behavior is the same not accepted behavior the next time they do it.

Thank you very much for your inputs on them, it is VERY well taken.

No worries, Jeff. I could talk this stuff all day. I was excited to see your post.

Yep, you got it. One of his best take home messages: be the mirror you want your dog to see.

No dominance needed for that, only a little calm leadership

Quote :

I do believe it's what works for what dog though because I know if Cesar used the whole "SHHT" thing on my old dog he would get the crap bit out of him.

This made me laugh, solely because my MIL loves Cesar and uses this method on her little dog. It doesn't work for her dog, so she spends over half the day saying "SHHHT" for no reason. Her dog honestly needs way more training and socialization than that.

I agree with Jeff, a lot of the issues with Cesar comes from his reasons for WHY a dog does something. While I don't agree that everything a dog does is dominance related (Karli is the most submissive dog on the planet, she couldn't be dominant if her life depended on it) energy is a big thing. I know there was a video of his posted here a while ago about a husky male, and really the husky's biggest issue was lack of exercise. With the tips that Cesar gave them, the family was able to be able to work with their dog. Sure, he can be rough at times, those aren't the kind of approaches of his that I would copy. Its like with any training, pick and choose what you want to use.

I like Ceaser. I don't agree with everything. Like I don't see myself doing the alpha roll. However, I like some things like others have indicated. The exercise and remaining a calm leader is what I like best. How well he maintains his composure and focus in very difficult situations. That is something that I think can benefit all dogs. I like that he does not encourage the excited mindset and redirects energy to appropriate behaviors. Something I encouraged with my first big dogs without knowing, but I'm not encouraging with Loki. I will use the "SHHT" as I like it, but it is more to focus him back on me like a oops command. I also like how he likes to address the issue before it escalates by paying attention to behaviors. While he doesn't point out all dog behaviors, it does give you lots of examples to see dogs about to do something wrong.

Roxy and Jessica, well said.

I was just thinking about this on my walk with Link a few minutes ago: Leash Pulling.

Cesar says you should not allow your dog to pull you on leash, or for that matter be in front of the plane of your body whatsoever,  because dogs are pack animals and the leader of the pack is in front.  Period.  Leaders lead and followers follow.  

Well theoretically I don't agree with this because I think this takes the wolf analogy a bit too literally.

Practically, I have an 8 month old bratty teenage Husky and I know that applying this theory to everything he does is problematic and explaining all of his misbehavior and impulses by dominance/submission is just wrong (I personally think so anyway).  

That said, I don't care now nor have I ever cared if Link walks in front of me, beyond the plane of my body.  What I do care about is if he pulls me.  I find pulling and a tight leash obnoxious and uncomfortable and unpleasant and unsafe. The leash and my arm should be loose, not tight.  It has been this way since he was 8 weeks old, and for the most part, he complies beautifully (until the squirrel or cat or bird....).   When he walks he is never, ever behind me as Cesar would have it.  He is either beside or in front, granted with a loose leash, the thing I care about. So what I find valuable, loose leash, I enforce and when he pulls or tightens the leash/my arm, he gets corrected verbally and with a slight check on the leash.  He then falls back in line.  

So while he is technically in front of me (supposedly my pack leader), he is obeying me by what my expectations are. He checks in, makes eye contact, responds to his name, and interacts with me often.  When I run with him across a soccer field, he doesn't try to run away and pull he runs with me as though we were playing.  It's great.  I think dogs pull out in front because they are rarely shown or expected not to consistently and because, well, they are just faster than us and our normal walking speeds are very different.  Loose leash for a dog = slower than their normal speed; it is completely unnatural for them.  We have to provide consistent leadership and show them that they are expected to slow down.  We have to have them respect us enough to find doing something that is unnatural for them to be worth while.  

He is/will be allowed to pull while sledding, joring, hiking, etc but not on walks.

I don't believe that dominance or leadership has to have hard casted parameters and rules as Cesar seems to suggest. I think leadership and for that matter dominance should take the form of whatever the leader wants it to.  We have different styles and personalities and values and so do our dogs.  What our relationship with our dogs look like will vary accordingly.

I let my dogs walk in front of me some as well, but not pulling as you said Jeff. I think it is important that I can get them to come back or sit while they are in front though so we are working on Loki with that as well and he is making good progress. I also think a loose leash regardless of length I provide is good as well. So if I only give a few feet, he should stay close to me without pulling. This is how my other dogs walk and it helps in busier areas.

I also agree on the dominance thing, I don't think it applies all the time. I also think leadership is different then dominance. I am afterall a cat person too and dominance doesn't work, which is why I like the cat show. hehe

Oh training! Ha ha.

I'm still frustrated with my bf's pup. He is 9 months and destroys something EVERYDAY. I went over to check on Milo, his weimaraner, today and he had chewed up his last pair of tennis shoes, a belt, and a beer coozie. And it's seriously not the dog's fault. He should have access to all of this anyways! It's driving me crazy. I've told him this many times.

Part of the reason I am moving is because I have so many things packed into one room it would be hard to puppy proof. I guess that happens when you move a whole house into a bedroom... ha ha. I can tell you this: Shaqua's little sister will not have access to anything to destroy. If she gets a hold of my shoes it will most likely be my fault. It sucks because I am going to miss living with Shay, and the cheap rent, but I'm moving right down the road and she's still offered to dog/puppy sit when needed. <3

Cesar and I don't get along.

The actual owner of one of the dogs who was "rehabbed" is a member of a Facebook group I frequent. I believe his name was shadow, or the mal that pretty much got strung up and hung by Cesar and then when he defended himself was labeled as aggressive. Sadly, the owns at the time were oblivious and making matters worse by constantly trying to dominate the dog. The owner now is a member of the rescue who they originally adopted him from. The entir rescue was appalled by the actions on the show and the people (set, cast, etc.) even admitted the dogs are baited off camera. Apparently he is doing much better with his new owner (foster fail) and is nothing like the dog in the show.

Ignore any spelling or grammar issues. On iPad.

I have to be in the same boat with the majority of everyone else. His "calm assertive pack leader" approach works wonderfully for me. My 8 week old puppy in one day went from never wearing a leash or collar and absolutely hating both, to walking on it like a champ with no pulling or tugging (except rarely). All because I used that theory and eventually Spartacus sensed the energy and trusted me.

Also anytime another dog comes running up barking it's head off, I direct my energy towards Spartacus to ignore the dog and after two or three little tugs on the leash to break his concentration he completely ignores the dog and in turn the other dog mellows out withing 10-30 seconds because he sees that Spartacus doesn't care.

Another thing Cesar teaches is "exercise, discipline, and affection" I take my pup out on a long walk every morning. Every time i take him for a walk to go potty I also do a large lap around my back yard and the exercise/worn out pooch makes him a rather obedient pooch. Discipline (not to be confused with scorning or punishing a dog) but rather making him sit or lay before feeding also works well he now sits on command and knows to wait if I say so.

Cesar also teaches developing a sound to be associated with "i don't agree with what you are doing" his infamous "shht!' sound. I personally snap my fingers. Spartacus knows after 2-3 snaps that what he doing is not allowed and will stop.

He also teaches to have the dog in a "calm-submissive state" before you have him do anything (again not to be confused with having your dog a "slave" to your will but just in a calm state where he will more likely obey your command happily) I noticed this works extremely well with potty training. My last husky when we would wake up in the morning he would start freaking out which I took as "let me out! I need to pee!" and I not knowing any better responded with the "oh crap he is about to burst I need to get him out now!" reaction and almost every time I never made out side before the pooch would start peeing on the way out. However, with Spartacus I make him sit and calm down before opening the crate and then I calmly attach his leash and then lead him downstairs out the door across the porch and THEN finally to the grass so he can relieve himself. He hasn't once lost control of his bladder during all this. It works just as well in the opposite case. As we all know not all pups like their crates. But, when you put him in that calm state and then have him lay down in it he doesn't whine nearly as much if at all! It also works for having your dog having a good experience when driving in the car. Let him get in on his terms and in a calm state and he will enjoy the ride. Something my last husky didn't do and thus got really bad car sickness every time.

If you have read his books he teaches you how to go about bringing home your puppy. I followed his advice of taking a towel with your scent on it and leaving it in the pen with the puppies to get your scent and their scent on it. That way, when you bring him home that first night he is more at ease because he still senses his litter-mates. Which for me meant no whining at night from the get go and being able to sleep peacefully only with a few interruptions to take him for a walk since puppies can't hold their pee that long (though last night he went from 10pm-5:45am with out waking up).

One thing I don't agree with is his affection viewpoint. He says no affection for the first two weeks you have the dog. Screw that noise! So yes in a way I think a lot of the things he teaches outside of his tv series plus a majority from his series all works wonderfully for me. But I still want that loving bond with my dog that everyone dreams of so I give affection when I please.

In the end, I definitely have to give credit to Cesar's techniques for a majority of success I have had with Spartacus but I also mesh those with my own ways as well.

I think the walking in front thing Cesar (and other dominance based methods) says is silly. Have you ever seen a wolf pack walking all in a straight line or arrow formation because the alpha dogs don't want the other dogs to walk in front? Even if it were applicable to dogs, we are creating an artificial situation by having our dog on a leash. To me, normal 'pack' behavior when on the move is more like a roving type situation, which dogs do naturally when off leash. The alpha wolves dictating direction and the other wolves running beside, behind and out front at varying distances. Although, I do agree with the loose leash walking, but that is learned behavior, the same way sit or down.

Matt, I too find difficulty with the larger ways he deals with and characterizes affection. While I am on board with affection being last in the order of operations of a dog's needs, I struggle to agree completely with his sweeping characterization of affection as emotional, and therefore a manifestation of weakness.

There are some major sexist, and perhaps even homophobic, issues wrapped up in this. Regardless of any truth to this, there are social consequences for continuing to describe affection/emotions in this way.

The objectivist in me wants to be on board to a degree, but it's tricky. I guess if we are talking about from dog's point of view though.....hence the dilemma.

Yep, good points Jen. That's one of his more overzealous issues.

Wow, yeah you are really reading into this entirely too much. Bringing up sexism and everything. Really stretching to make that connection.

Is it really a stretch, or does it just make you uncomfortable or insecure or do you not understand it?

It is a commonly understood issue that women are historically and regularly categorized as the weaker gender in a patriarchal society like ours. Femininity is seen as weak and inferior and lacking substance; feminism, in fact, is the movement to combat this ideology precisely. Femininity is culturally associated with emotions and weakness; the irrational.

Sexism is the cultural manifestation of this ideology.

Gay men, as being typically cast as men possessing femininity or men who lack masculinity(because why else would they not be attracted to women), are seen in patriarchal culture as weaker, more emotional, and therefore more womanly, more feminine.

Homophobia is only possible in a sexist, patriarchal society that associates gender with power and weaknesses.

So when somebody's theory claims that emotions are a manifestation of weakness and submissiveness, this has potent implications for a society that thrives on constructions of gender that sees women and gay men as weak and emotional, inferior, and insubstantial that should be accounted for and scrutinized.

I don't see this as a stretch at all. When somebody's theory says that emotions and affection are a manifestation of weakness and submissiveness, there is a social implication that is highly relevant in as sexist, homophobic society that routinely associates all women and gay men with these attributes.

We are talking about a theory that has real effects on our lives and our dogs after all, it would be a disservice to not read too much into it.