I know it would depend on several things, especially collar contact. I am not sure I want to take that chance when he has such a prey drive instinct. he has gifted several prey possums, rabbits, etc. to us at the back door where he stays outside overnite. I will set up a long 50' to 100' cable run till iget about 1/2 acre fenced for him.. he will be able to run a little and explore the edge of the woods.
thanks for the reply. as far as Milan theory is concerned, I see how it applies to some dogs but realize that each one is a personality of his own. we are doing pretty good with our 22 mo. old except for the jumping issue. and occasional digging. and even that is not all that bad. I need to get him a sand box area.

This is Boudreaux at 1 year old. he is now 22 months. I think I have Mom talked into letting me keep him LOL

seattlesibe wrote:

Rbaenen, is it only the dominance based aspect of his system that you object to? That part is only the theory behind his system, it answers *why* dogs do what they do.

Take that out complete, is there nothing left that you agree with? The rest is mostly very practical ideas about how to do what's best for your dog and make them balanced, fulfilled, and happy.  Do none of those aspects of his system sit well with you?

I agree with one mantra of his and that is EXERCISE! Dogs needs it. Good dogs can't be good dogs without exercise. Especially high energy breeds like Huskies.

Dogs don't do what they do because they want to be the alpha. Its just... not true. Dogs are opportunistic creatures and they do what they do to get what they want. They want food and attention. They do not want to take over the house. I've the thumbs and control over food. I'm the boss. I can't blame any of Bae's bad behavior on "dominance issues" because thats not treating the problem! His whole training system is based on doggy dominance, which has been debunked both in dogs and wolves. I think training methods are as strong as their foundation and his crumbled out from under him.

I also dislike the way Cesar treats dogs and push, push, pushes them to their limits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk displays a husky with leash reactivity. Shadow acts exactly like the way Bae reacts to other dogs on leash. Instead of working and using counterconditioning, Cesar just cuts off the dog's air supply. He "corrects" the dog for something that the dog doesn't even understand! Shadow doesn't know that barking and growling at another dog is wrong. He is barking out of fear or frustration. Why would you correct a dog for that?

I am not a balanced trainer. I'm as positive as a trainer can get. My dogs rarely, if ever get corrected. If they mess up, its on ME. I didn't proof enough or I put the dog into a situation he wasn't ready for. Many dogs are too soft to be tugged around or choked during training. Why do things the Cesar Way when a positive way works just as well or better for all dogs?

Thats just the way I see it. As long as you aren't "touching" your dog as Cesar does or cutting off your dog's air supply as punishment, it's cool by me. I personally would never let him train my dogs. *shrug*

Eek. I forgot to add that he knows nothing to very little about dog body language and it gets him bit. I'm not an expert trainer or anything but I back off when a dog growls at me and try to train something else for a bit. You just can't provoke a dog into biting you and then get mad when dog actually bites.

Poor Holly Dog is a resource guarder. Instead of using proven, positive techniques to teach her that its ok-even great-to have people near your food, he provokes her into biting him. :/

Video link for Holly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM

Maybe I am bad, but I still like Cesar for some things.  The calm energy he displays is probably what amazes me most. In addition to other things I mentioned, I think the power of the "Pack" is coming true in our house.  Lexi was very tolerant of Loki's bitting for many months.  Now that he is bigger, she seems to not allow him to bite as much or as hard.  She still is protective of him, just not as tolerant to biting/biting hard.  I have noticed after her change towards him, he got noticeably better with us too.  Maybe it is just timing since we had been working with him for awhile, but part of me feels it is connected as well.  It seems others have indicated doggy daycare helped their pups with nipping as well.  Often, I know Cesar takes problem dogs around a large group of dogs and it seems to help correct some problems.

techigirl78 wrote:

Maybe I am bad, but I still like Cesar for some things.  The calm energy he displays is probably what amazes me most.  In addition to other things I mentioned, I think the power of the "Pack" is coming true in our house.  Lexi was very tolerant of Loki's bitting for many months.  Now that he is bigger, she seems to not allow him to bite as much or as hard.  She still is protective of him, just not as tolerant to biting/biting hard.  I have noticed after her change towards him, he got noticeably better with us too.  Maybe it is just timing since we had been working with him for awhile, but part of me feels it is connected as well.  It seems others have indicated doggy daycare helped their pups with nipping as well.  Often, I know Cesar takes problem dogs around a large group of dogs and it seems to help correct some problems.

Positive trainers can have calm energy too!

Puppies, in dog world, usually get a free pass with annoying behaviors. Biting and nipping is controlled but mostly ok when they are little. As they get older, the older dog will teach them bite inhibition much like you would. The dog will remove herself from the pup's reach. The dog will yip and air snap at the pup perhaps. If pup is being super annoying, the dog may correct him or her using teeth or pushing of some sort. Dogs correct other dogs with amazing accuracy that humans could not even dare try to recreate.

Taking dogs into a huge dog pack may solve some problems but exacerbate others. Resource guarding is best worked one on one, adding dogs as you go. Learning doggy manners is best learned with a fair amount of other well doggy mannered dogs. Kind of depends on the behavior you want to modify!

I agree positive trainers can have calm energy too and the good ones usually do.

I guess with my pup, my understanding was this behavior becomes intolerable at 12-14 weeks or earlier. My lab snapped at him early on and he learned quick don't mess with that guy. Yet, Lexi dealt with it until Loki was bigger than her and about 6.5 months. This seems to go beyond the normal tolerance stage, but I am happy she has taken so much to him since he really seems to have perked her up.

I also agree resource guarding is not to be worked on with a bunch of dogs. As you said, some things are greatly helped by a group of well mannered dogs and that was one item I remember seeing on the Dog Whisperer that resonated with me.

A new Cesar critique is making the internet rounds, and I'm curious what you guys think.

http://yodogcast.tumblr.com/post/55504306960/the-damage-of-the-dog-whisperer-a-scientific-critique

Also, here is an analysis of the critique and Cesar from my training hero...

http://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/cesar-and-the-latest-science/comment-page-1/#comment-44443

This statement is very interesting to me, and stood out to me in the analysis article that I linked to above:

"Yes I do believe that Cesar’s confrontational approach can cause aggression... In point of fact I contend that today there is even more aggression being caused by the positive school with their positive, hyper-manic stimulating–stimulating—stimulating ideology." - Kevin Behan

I have a comment awaiting moderation, hopefully it will get posted and answered, but here it is below.

So here is my question relating to the scientific critique of Cesar and his methods. Aside from obviously being written to a lay audience, not as a ‘scientific paper,’ and to elicit certain emotions of pity and anger toward CM’s methods, I want to know if it is actually possible to design a truly unbiased experiment comparing two dog training methods? And quite frankly, that question aside, I don't know a scientist that would begin an analysis with the sentence, “I've now been training dogs for a decade. I find Cesar Millan’s training theory and advice appalling.” That is a personal opinion coming from an emotional place. Where is the data? The experimental design? And what researcher would not put their name on their work?

To me, it seems impossible to make all variables equal enough to get reliable, repeatable results. If the same person acts as the ‘trainer’ in both methods, how would they be able to execute each method equally well? We are human after all, and someone studying dogs will have an opinion one way or another. One does not get into the science of dogs without an affinity for dogs. How could that person NOT let that opinion affect not only their execution, but their very experimental design, and would they even know if it did? They are already primed before the experiment even begins. If they were to choose two trainers, each respected in their training methods, how would they be able to determine if it was the method or the trainer executing the methods? Some unknown factor (aka, flow)? After all, the trainers are respected because they produce results. How could environment be equaled, without influencing results, but replicating real daily life for dogs? To me, creating an unbiased scientific study in this case seems impossible. Dogs and dog training taps into much more than just pleasure vs. pain, reward vs. punishment. It’s a gross oversimplification of the interplay of what’s happening between dog and human. Not to mention differences between basic temperaments of individual dogs, breed traits, and prenatal and early post birth experiences, etc.

Do you think it’s possible to design an experiment that can really tackle one training method vs. the other?

I don't think it would be possible unless you had a very large test group. Every dog is an individual so the only way it would work is for you to conduct the experiment many times over and find the percentages. The size of the test group that would be required would be pretty much impossible to organize....

How would you measure your results? In a crazy world you could go out and get two puppies from a million different breeders. Send one puppy to the punishment kennel and the other to the reward kennel and let them live out their lives in the same concrete and chain link world just with different training with trainers that had had equal years at their practice and equal success and failure rates, but how would you decide which training produced better dogs? You could still end up with equal good and bad dogs on both methods if you didn't really narrow down what defined what you were wanting to see. And how could you ever define it in a fair manor?

wpskier222 wrote:

Do you think it’s possible to design an experiment that can really tackle one training method vs. the other?

Yes...off the top of my head 100 (or more) matched pairs (matched as in breed, age, household size and composition, dog temperament measure to a standard instrument (don't know of one - could be designed if one not currently available.) One of each pair gets the Milan tx the other gets the positive reinforcement. Then design an insturment to measure their behavior at end of specific time period, with follow up at various intervals.

I think his methods can be applied relatively in some scenarios but should be taken with a pinch of salt.