Haha. I wish I had that video too.

You bring up a valid point Amy. There's is an important distinction to be made between this training and treat based positive reinforcement training.

The goal with the former is to channel their drives onto your relationship with them independent of food , which when truly analyzed acts as either a bribe or an easy pay off. Over time, the fulfillment for dogs who are treat trained becomes all about food, the bribe.

The human then becomes the delivery system for food and it becomes extremely difficult to establish a bond , let alone obedience, outside of continually providing food rewards.

The dog's motive is then, food, rather than drive fulfillment.

It becomes a distinction, I think , between immediate (food) fulfillment verses long term (drive)fulfillment.

A dog who is treat trained can still be very anxious and hyper and nervous and unbalanced whereas a dog whose drives are allowed full expression and fulfillment will naturally be relieved of these problems, given that good nutrition and other basic needs being met.

Jenn, thank you for the link, took a quick look and will be delving deeper later.

I want to ask Jeff, Jenn, Amy, and whoever else, do you feel that this training method to be outside the box, or controversial? I agree wholeheartedly on this form of training. My training with Miya has indeed been very similar to how you three have trained your dogs. I find though, when I mention this type of training and husky in the same sentence that I am looked at in disbelief. That this type of training will backfire and you produce an aggressive dog, for lack of a better word.

I enjoy this thread immensely. Couldn't agree with you more Jeff, pent up behavior = aggressive dog, imho. Do you find that most people who put their huskies in shelters because of "aggressive" behavior actually say they are afraid of their dogs, and the sad reality is if they would engage in "rough" play and know this is just their personality more would be with their original people?

A country version of your beer walk Jeff, is when Miya spots our neighbor's cat, I will give a whistle or a clap (I am approximately a half acre away from her, so I do have to make a noise for her to divert attention to begin with) and then proceed to get low to the ground in a stalking stance and she will turn her attention completely to me and stalk me, chase me, catch me....I feel I have as much fun as she does, plus it gives me more of a work out, than just walking, lol.

Jeff good point with the treat based training. I have mentioned before that Miya was never treat motivated, I had to develop a different relationship with her, that most here in my community didn't understand. Their belief was get a pocket of treats and she will do what you ask eventually, but it didn't work for her. What did was rough play intermingled with command training and then the positive reinforcement of good girl. I too get long winded, lol, but I can elaborate if you'd like.

MiyasMomma wrote:

I have mentioned before that Miya was never treat motivated, I had to develop a different relationship with her, that most here in my community didn't understand. Their belief was get a pocket of treats and she will do what you ask eventually, but it didn't work for her. What did was rough play intermingled with command training and then the positive reinforcement of good girl.

Just the opposite, here...Ami could care less about "good boy". Looks at me with an "will you shut up, you're annoying me" look . He does seem to like the mastery of training though. Archer - he's a whore for "good boy" and a pat on the head. Both boys are food motivated, particularly when the have to "work" for it (which hand, nose it out of mostly closed hand, sprinkle it on the ground to search it out or when I use it to shape a behavior).

I can't believe I missed this thread when it popped up again earlier in the year, I totally forgot about updating it!

Jeff your beer store scenario made me smile so much - both because it sounds hilarious and because Link would have got so much out of the experience with you. I am so pleased that the boot camp has worked for you and Link. I also totally agree on your "boom" theory it is the sad reality for many huskies. I've found that the vast majority of people have an idealistic view of what a dog should be, which breed like ours just do not conform to. Its that view which get so many beautiful dogs killed or sets them up for an unfulfilling life because people don't try to understand the inherent differences of the breeds they have chosen.
I had this argument with a young couple in one of my classes last week, they have a young dobie because they have always loved the look of them but can't understand why he's not as easy to deal with as their last dog - a mini poodle. To their way of thinking a dog is a dog and they should all be the same.

Jenn I still have that blog in my favorites, its great and I have encouraged many to read it.

Amy I love the bond you describe with Ami. He must have the most fun as a dog and I seriously wish Orion would work for kibble lol - he won't even eat the damn stuff let alone work for it!

Orion is predominately treat trained for many of the styles of training that we participate in (it really is just not ok to wrestle with your dog in a formal obedience scenario lol) and I do agree with Jeff on his views with treat training. I have worked with Orion to transition his rewards from treat to action and raise the value of different rewards through our training to ensure I am not relying on simple treats the entire time, many dogs that I have come across that are only food rewarded are very unstable little dogs who generally are not very reliable. I have found the best results I get are starting a new behavior with food rewards until I get the level of execution I want and then start transitioning to play, prey and affection rewards (in that order) when I start asking for duration in the behavior not just execution. That way I know Orion will work regardless of what I have on offer with me at the time. When I am transitioning I use the food as a reward for accepting the other reward, for example if I want him to play tug initially I will offer him the game as an option then reward when he interacts - this way it is more of a seamless transition for him and he understands what I am after. I'll only do this a few times though and it is simply me making sure that he know what the reward is and does not stop offering what I am after. I never want him to fail.

Renee I have found it is somewhat controversial but I am very lucky here, Orion is the first Husky to go through our local training club so the people that I train with are very interested in my methods with him and don't try and persuade me to do otherwise. Roughly 70% of the dogs in our club are border collies or border collie mixes so as you can imagine the training for them is vastly different to what I do. When I first came along to the club when Orion was 5 months old for our first class Orion was feral - he even dislocated my fingers that night trying to get to other dogs. I found out not long ago that two of the most experienced trainers in the club made a bet with each other that night that Orion would be rehomed or destroyed before he was a year old, they did not think I could handle him. They now both openly admit that while neither of them could ever have a dog like him they have both employed techniques they have seen me use with their latest puppies.

The last 6 months have been a lot of fun for me training with Orion, I have met with a lot of trainers and tried quite a few things to keep my little beast happy. At the moment I am working on scent and tracking with him using my scent as the bait - I am quite literally being the moose lol. It is great fun and always has him driving back to me as his priority so it keeps us working together quite nicely

I think the key to using treats for training, aside from making the dog "work" for the treat (and making it fun to get) is, after they associate the behavior with the treat, it is time to start making the treat "unpredictable" ie, as in tradional learning theory, if the reward is always there, then it is choice, if the reward is random and intermittent, then the person/animal will ardently perform waiting for that reward but not really knowing when it will come. At least, according to BF Skinner from my long, long, long ago training.

Absolutely Amy, it is failure to develop the reward that causes the food reward method to fall over. I also see a lot of instances in competition training where the owners mistake rewarding with treats for affectionate interaction. Ami is evidently bonded with you and fulfilled in other areas of his lifestyle - the baggie of kibble that he loves so much is just like his happy little bonus. If Ami wasn't so content then chances are he wouldn't react so well to it, he would be searching for more from you. The unbalanced dogs that I mentioned in my previous posts are those who get none of that, they simply get training and reward no true interaction its very sad but it comes from a very common human idea that food = love

Ditto that clarification (and respect for Amy) for me, thanks Olivia.   By no means, Amy, was my critique above directed at you.  It was only inspired by your contribution to the conversation.

For the record, I bribe Link.  For example, when we are in the woods all weekend and he's been successfully off leash for days and it is time to go and I am just not in the mood to catch him, I bribe him with food to get him in the car. Or, when we are out walking and I am tired and there's a dog who strikes his fancy approaching, I bribe him with food by glancing my hand in front of his nose and then waiting for his surrender.  I am just forcing myself to use food rewards less and less these days.

It's just that way too often food becomes peoples' only way of connecting with their dog, training their dog, and loving their dog.

I never, these days, give Link food rewards for :  being cute, being calm, laying down, sitting, heeling, etc.  These are my Default expectations for him (there are more, these are just obvious right now) and he does not need to be rewarded for obliging.  My lack of correction is the only treat he needs with these and as was trained in him since day 1, calmness is his reward.  He has learned to appreciate calmness as much as I do.  

It's just when he or I get distracted by certain things like the beer store that I have to undergo some sort of special training, and what I have found is that these are instances where it it fundamentally his prey drive  behind the misbehavior.  So that is where I am now focusing to get him  back on track.  

Renee, this ties in perfectly to your questions. Yea, I absolutely feel that there would be less Huskies in shelters if people understood their nature and were better capable of meeting their needs.  

There isn't anything wrong or problematic about the breed.  It's not the breed that is dangerous or hyper or anxious or frustrated--you know how we have to incessantly warn newbies about "the breed."  What we are actually warning people about is the immense amount of time and effort and physical energy to keep dogs of this breed content, fulfilled, and balanced.   When a Husky is dangerous or hyper or anxious or frustrated that is the byproduct of a failed relationship with their human.  The dog's needs are not being met.  That's not to say it is any human's fault, but it is to say that meeting their needs and keeping them balanced is extremely difficult, more difficult than with lots of other breeds.

Huskies dig not because they are trying to get someplace but because they are trying to escape someplace, for example.  That is how I frame it in my mind.   A dog who spends his time barking and eating furniture and digging out of yards and pulling on the leash all the time is a dog who is miserable and screaming to be resituated in life.   There is nothing healthy or normal about these behaviors for an animal.  For a Husky, perhaps, but only because too many people with a Husky can not handle a Husky, therefore, the breed has developed a reputation of being problematic.  

One thing I love about Cesar Millan's show is the very first thing he does is look at the human and more or less ask "what have you done wrong?"   They are a byproduct of what we do to them and how we have designed them.  

This is why I think drive training is so powerful and wonderful. It addresses a Husky's needs as an animal first and foremost.  It creates balance and fulfillment.

seattlesibe wrote:

Ditto that clarification (and respect for Amy) for me, thanks Olivia.   By no means, Amy, was my critique above directed at you.  It was only inspired by your contribution to the conversation.

For the record, I bribe Link.  For example, when we are in the woods all weekend and he's been successfully off leash for days and it is time to go and I am just not in the mood to catch him, I bribe him with food to get him in the car. Or, when we are out walking and I am tired and there's a dog who strikes his fancy approaching, I bribe him with food by glancing my hand in front of his nose and then waiting for his surrender.  I am just forcing myself to use food rewards less and less these days.

It's just that way too often food becomes peoples' only way of connecting with their dog, training their dog, and loving their dog.

I never, these days, give Link food rewards for :  being cute, being calm, laying down, sitting, heeling, etc.  These are my Default expectations for him (there are more, these are just obvious right now) and he does not need to be rewarded for obliging.  My lack of correction is the only treat he needs with these and as was trained in him since day 1, calmness is his reward.  He has learned to appreciate calmness as much as I do.  

It's just when he or I get distracted by certain things like the beer store that I have to undergo some sort of special training, and what I have found is that these are instances where it it fundamentally his prey drive  behind the misbehavior.  So that is where I am now focusing to get him  back on track.  

Renee, this ties in perfectly to your questions. Yea, I absolutely feel that there would be less Huskies in shelters if people understood their nature and were better capable of meeting their needs.  

There isn't anything wrong or problematic about the breed.  It's not the breed that is dangerous or hyper or anxious or frustrated--you know how we have to incessantly warn newbies about "the breed."  What we are actually warning people about is the immense amount of time and effort and physical energy to keep dogs of this breed content, fulfilled, and balanced.   When a Husky is dangerous or hyper or anxious or frustrated that is the byproduct of a failed relationship with their human.  The dog's needs are not being met.  That's not to say it is any human's fault, but it is to say that meeting their needs and keeping them balanced is extremely difficult, more difficult than with lots of other breeds.

Huskies dig not because they are trying to get someplace but because they are trying to escape someplace, for example.  That is how I frame it in my mind.   A dog who spends his time barking and eating furniture and digging out of yards and pulling on the leash all the time is a dog who is miserable and screaming to be resituated in life.   There is nothing healthy or normal about these behaviors for an animal.  For a Husky, perhaps, but only because too many people with a Husky can not handle a Husky, therefore, the breed has developed a reputation of being problematic.  

One thing I love about Cesar Millan's show is the very first thing he does is look at the human and more or less ask "what have you done wrong?"   They are a byproduct of what we do to them and how we have designed them.  

This is why I think drive training is so powerful and wonderful. It addresses a Husky's needs as an animal first and foremost.  It creates balance and fulfillment.

understood Jeff. WE HAVE to bribe Ami on occasion too...like when he's jumped into our bed!

Too. Much work on new tablet anybody know how to close apps on Android

Amy, I totally agree with Jeff and Olivia as far as you and Ami are concerned. You let Ami be a dog, by interacting with him, in a way that most people do not with their dogs. You rough play with him, you let him "smell the daisy's" when you walk with him. I admire you for that. Your training with Ami is more similar than you let on, the treats, imho, is just an aspect for you and him, as in your training doesn't revolve around treats only. You have had a completely different scenario than the rest of us on this particular thread, in that Ami was "grown", whereas with the rest of us posters we had ours from puppy hood. You have accomplished in one years time, what many of us have worked on for two years time, and that is a happy, well adjusted dog, and an incredible bond.

Jeff, quite funny on your digging and escaping analogy. I had a conversation not long ago with my dad on that subject. My neighbor's husky escapes every chance he can get. I mentioned to my dad that dogs don't escape just because, they escape for something better or because of something they currently lack. He totally agreed. My neighbor's blame Miya playing with their boy as to why he is constantly escaping, I have tried to broach the subject before with them, as in why do you think he comes to our house to play with Miya (lack of exercise and mental stimulation at home), it really has nothing to do with Miya, they don't see it that way. They also believe that an e-collar will solve the problem, when it was my dedication to property boundaries as a pup, and because of our tremendous amount of exercise, interaction and mental stimulation that keeps her home, not the e-collar. He is a gorgeous husky, but I am afraid he will be shot by a rancher or hit by a car, before they figure out what he truly needs. The real sad thing with him is, when he was under a year old he went everywhere with them, to work, on vacations, to the store. The last 2 years he spends his days in a wire outside kennel, with cement floor, and roof so he cannot not escape, and then their front fenced in yard that is not much bigger than a run. He is exhilarated when we come over because he can indeed be free and romp. They think I am crazy, but I will get in the middle of the romp and romp with them, lol. I too get a lot of bruises Amy, lol

Well you definitely understand the concepts of drive and fulfillment Renne and Miya, for sure, can be grateful for that. Hopefully one day her buddy can find the same peace of mind.

Just checking back into this thread. Still loads of great info. We have tons of rabbits and squirrels in our neighborhood so we don't walk Kenai off lead until we are just down the road from the house.

He will run full sprint to the driveway but if he doesn't see me running he will stop and sit. When I catch up he will run again then sit and wait at the front gate. He's awesome and extremely loyal. Our old dogs would've bolted and appeared an hour later at the door.

I took Kenai to a off leash dog park the last two days to get him around some dogs and expend some energy. He played extremely well and when I'd call him to move along, he mostly came witho it hesitation. Other dog owners were puzzled to see such a good recall.

I'm hoping to continue working with him to improve the bond.