Check out the natural dog blog I linked to as well.

To be fair he doesn't use the term 'psychology' in the academic sense which is what you are describing Jen.  He's not conjuring up a psyche constructed of past experiences and impressions that shape personality.  

He's using it in more of a philosophical, metaphysical sense.  The "beingness" of a dog or what is sometimes said in metaphysics the "thingness" of a thing.  Ethos, if you will. Oh, and notably not explicitly in these terms, ha. That's my framing. Go figure.

Just to clarify.

GeorginaMay wrote:

I must read the Cesar books, you have mentioned them a few times Jeff, they really do sound interesting. I love the idea of approaching interaction from a primal perspective rather than by preconceived notions.

You should, if no other reason he is very relevant. Just remember, you can either completely cut the wolf pack analogy/dominance-submission stuff OR reframe it in another way of thinking and you are still left with like 85% sound, good, non-controversial stuff and wonderful food for thought.

Jen I'm on the Natural dog blog now, it is going to have to go in my favourites I think - definitely a lot of things I need to read!

I'll have a look at those books this weekend Jeff, I'm taking a long weekend to take Orion hiking on Friday since the forecast for saturday/sunday is for storms which will be perfect reading weather!

I wish I could subsist on food for thought... how wonderful would that be

I know when I was reading about cats getting killed due to prey drive, I read some articles that focused on using the drive.  Thus, loki learned fetch, frisbee, flirt pole, and got his own sandbox to dig.  It sounded like the more you use it instead of repressing, the easier it is to manage.  For the most part I agree and I think this approach helped me a lot with my shepherd mix and now Loki.  Loki loves his ball so much he completely ignores the cats running when I play with him or have it and almost all the time it works outside.  He also can play with cat toys while cats are jumping in air to get it and he can stay 100% focused on toy.  His reward for learning sit pretty has been his ball half the time and I intend on teaching him more using his ball.  I would probably play tug more but he is not too interested in it and gives up pretty quick.

So does Loki fetch all the time? Repeatedly? That's definitely a good use of prey drive. It probably doesn't help that I'm not that into it but Link isn't a fetcher. He'll chase a ball but as soon as it stops moving, he's done.

Makes sense I suppose. At the point of it stopping and then bringing it back, some other motive has to kick in. Link loves to chase dogs that love to fetch, however

Loki will consistently do it about 20-30 times. He drops in my hand on command as well. I think he was helped a lot by my shepherd mix who can still play fetch for easily an hour. In her earlier days, Lexi literally could play fetch 4-5 hours at a time when company was over and the ball thrower kept changing. It started with him chasing her and turned into him wanting to get it and the game not to end.

If it helps, I taught my cat fetch too. I think their little excited eyes looking at the ball or toy just makes me smile.

That's impressive for a Husky.

As I said, I think my shepherd mix taught him well. My lab on other hand has just watched me play fetch for years. Go figure.

seattlesibe wrote:

To be fair he doesn't use the term 'psychology' in the academic sense which is what you are describing Jen.  He's not conjuring up a psyche constructed of past experiences and impressions that shape personality.  

He's using it in more of a philosophical, metaphysical sense.  The "beingness" of a dog or what is sometimes said in metaphysics the "thingness" of a thing.  Ethos, if you will.   Oh, and notably not explicitly in these terms, ha.  That's my framing.  Go figure.

Just to clarify.

I see, I was just taking it too literally. After some thought, I think using that word helps him make his point, even though it's not necessarily used in a literal way. Humans understand psychology to an extent and it helps make a connection with what he's getting at. I'm on the train now.

techigirl78 wrote:

Loki will consistently do it about 20-30 times. He drops in my hand on command as well. I think he was helped a lot by my shepherd mix who can still play fetch for easily an hour. In her earlier days, Lexi literally could play fetch 4-5 hours at a time when company was over and the ball thrower kept changing. It started with him chasing her and turned into him wanting to get it and the game not to end.

I'm impressed by this too. Diz is like Link and chases the ball and leaves it at that. Sometimes he'll pick it up and carry it toward me a few steps, but inevitably something interesting happens and he drops it and gets distracted. I always joke 'my dog, chases dogs that chase balls.' Also, Dizzy absolutely loves da bird toy. I used to use that with him when he was a puppy and I should get it back out. I go through a lot of the feather things though, he drools all over them and then they don't fly very well any more, he too can be next to the cat playing when that toy is out and pay her no mind. Something I noticed with this toy is that I've never felt him clamp down SO hard as when he catches it. Even if he finds some delicious dead thing to try and eat in the park, I can open his jaw and extract it relatively easily. With da bird his jaw is like cement.

I emailed Kevin Behan this morning and asked him how I could use the chase aspect of the prey drive in working with Dizzy. I will share his response if/when he gets back to me.

Olivia, thank you so much for starting this topic. It is something I get really excited about!

Gus is a pro-fetcher too! He didn't used to be. At first, he would get bored really quickly. But now, he can go non-stop until YOU get tired. It's a really great way to tire him out, but then he sometimes gets so distracted at the park when there is a ball around that he doesn't play or wrestle with any of the other dogs. I almost feel like his ball-fetching obsession has made him a bit of a loner. Also, if i don't take his ball out right away, then he will just "join another family" that does have a ball...

So Gus has this crazy crazy obsession with squeaky toys. Anything that squeaks, he will chew and pounce and destroy until it doesn't squeak anymore. I always assumed this was because of his high prey drive. And because of this, i stopped giving him squeaky toys because when another dog has a squeaky toy at the park, it just drives him WILD (sometimes to the point of guarding it)! So any suggestions on how to deal with that? I can't think of how i would use that as a training tool without re-enforcing the guarding behaviour from other dogs.

Loki will bring back balls, frisbees, and most toys like a ball. For some reason though the Kong flier toy (it is fabric and orange/blue), he does not like bringing back. I need to have 2 or 3 to use that toy and he will come back and drop one to get the new one thrown.

I agree, Da bird is an amazing toy. Early on I used it to teach Loki leave it when the cats were playing with it as I figured it heightened his interest and could be used as a good distraction. Now, he gets to play too and he leaves the cats alone as they all (2 cats and Loki) politely wait their turns for it to fly by them. I think he gets a kick out of it and also being able to play around the cats (they go for it too). Drop it works, but I need treats sometimes for him to do on first command and now I go through a lot more birdies.

Gus sounds like my Lexi. She is completely tuned out to the world around her if she sees a ball or has a ball and sees a hand. Of course at 12 she has calmed down, but until about 10 or so it was a pure obsession. When we had parties, people would be amazed as from the first person to come to the last person to leave she would be trying to hand people her ball.

Be the moose:

Interesting thoughts on the video I posted above. What interests me most is when he references the soft mouth and emotional connection. Jeff this goes with your perspective on teeth on skin as communication and bonding. He just posted it, so I'm hoping some of the blog followers have some interesting thoughts and questions to follow.

http://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/on-being-the-moose/

I came across a video on youtube the other day of a "Husky who is great with kids", more or less. The narrator (mom) at one point said "oh and nobody worry he is not biting her but he does put his mouth on her when they interact."

It made me smile.

we are doing search and rescue trainings combining prey drive with food rewards.. and he is doing great
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz2emi0WnzJjG4wdB-45y5Q/feed

Hey all,

So it has been awhile since I posted this topic but I thought I would drag it back up for those interested because I have had (what I think is) an exciting development
I have managed to track down a trainer who specializes in and is willing to work with me and Orion on drive activation, utilizing the drive and shaping the relationship between owner and dog so the owner becomes the drive fulfillment. We start with her next week.
I am enough of a nerd that I am really excited about this so of course I will post my experiences here

I am enough of a nerd that I am genuinely excited to hear about your new trainer's methods and your experiences. Please, please, please update!!!

That is really cool!! Looking forward to reading what you learn!

Any feedback from your training? I got to work with our k9 guys and it's pretty awesome to see their connections. Our pup loves to play fetch but I'd like to get him into more prey drive activities once we get his leg pain sorted.

Wow, thank you blackshears for finding this thread. I have always played with and trained with Miya in this fashion. We do everything that has been mentioned, tugs, fetch, wrestle, mouthing of me, chase, hand and verbal commands, etc. What I find very interesting is that she is a wonderful bird hunter, very trustworthy, and more crazy than anything is that she does this with me as well as my husband. It's an extreme bond like no other, I'm wondering if any of you have the same experience? We play chase at night, we are both her prey. If we are both out she will alternate who plays tugs or fetch. We let her choose what we play, quite honestly we haven't used a treat with her since she was a baby, under 6 months. I always thought it was because she isn't food motivated, now I believe it's because she is motivated by us.

I would love to get this topic going again, it intrigues me a great deal. As strange as it sounds, my mom taught me in order to have a respectful, trusting dog, well, be a dog, lol. It seriously has worked for us.

I wanted to share an update with everyone on a little Boot Camp I have had Link on this past week.   Jen reminded me of this thread which I just reread and there is some great training theory food for thought here.  

So, Link has been a great loose leash walker for nearly his whole life with me.  Training for that has been a top priority for me and I have been very pleased with his ability for a long time.  The occasional squirrel that catches me off guard will make him snap before I have a chance to redirect his drive in advance, but that's about the extent of his bad leash behavior....

...minus the beer store by our house.  The beer store is employed by dog lovers who speak in high tones and love to excite the heck out of dogs and then reward them for their excitement with gigantic milk bones.   Hence, "bad influence" beer store guys.  

Anytime we approach the store with Link, he would snap and switch into hunting mode (milk bone hunting---prey drive in high activity level), rendering my attempts to keep him calm and focused irrelevant and complete dismissal of my corrections or commands.  This was driving me crazy and would at times get so bad that I found myself embarrassed by being "that guy" with "that Husky."  I never want to be this and for the most part with Link I never am, nor have I ever been.  But this beer store, which we love to go to, had become a big challenge for me and I hit my breaking point with it.   I refuse to accept any breed-based excuses for bad behavior in any situation.  There has to be a way to improve, always.  

With Jen's suggestion and direct consultation, I began some desensitizing training with Link and the beer store using a slip chain collar and some intentional prey drive engagement.  I began by approaching the store down the sidewalk and the split second I saw him perk up and his prey drive activate, I immediately engaged him by flailing and wooping and offering him my arm for mouthing and inviting him to jump up at me.  When he did so, we than ran top speed the opposite direction.  Repeat the process.......but then the next time, we run right past the beer store and proceed without stopping there.    I became so much more interesting to him than the store. He was gooey eyed and fully engaged to me.

Next round.  Tug toy in hand, same process.  This time, we play tug and I get him riled up while playing and then I let him win, praise him , and then we run again the opposite direction.  Repeat process.....but then the next time, we simply walk calmly past the beer store while playing tug and he pays zero attention to the beer store.   Fully engaged to me once again.

After a couple days of repeating these steps, I have since been able to walk him by the beer store with his full attention on me and minimal, if any, attention paid to the store for 3 days in a row now.  The boot camp was a success.  

All I did was redirect his prey drive away from the store (bad behavior) and onto me and our relationship (good behavior); I utilized his drive rather than attempt to change it or train it away ( which I think, frankly, is impossible but so many people keep trying). Many of you know I have wrestled with Link while down on all 4s his whole life.  This boot camp was just an advanced version of that exact same process.

There are so many analogies to this type of training, but I think the best ones are human frustrations when no outlets for our energy are present: could be sexual, artistic, creative, athletic, intellectual, spiritual, etc.  The idea of volcanic pressure building up and up and up and then....boom.  

This boom, so to speak, is a huge reason why so many Huskies are misbehaved and dangerous and end up in shelters.  They are frustrated with a lack of fulfillment for their drives in their lives with their people.   They have no manageable, meaningful outlets offered to them.  This can be changed with some creative training techniques.  

I hope this helps with our discussion here on our Huskies' prey drives in training scenarios.

I should mention everything I've learned about training with the prey drive comes from kevin behan.

https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/

I'm glad this worked for you...wish I had video of you "flailing and whooping" down the street

In a much more sedate version (if I flail and whoop, I'll probably strain something ), I believe having the kibble in my pocket speaks to the same drive. Makes the boys always keep me in sight, or at least ear shot even if I can't quite see them. If I even put my hand in my pocket to warm up, they come running