In our 3.5 months of having Link there's been one ongoing concern that I haven't been able to figure out or correct and I was hoping to get some feedback or suggestions.

The only time Link ever growls at me or my partner (both men) is when we pick him up, and sometimes even when we go to pick him up or fake it (just to experiment or prove the point).

He otherwise never growls, not around food or toys or bones, nothing. I could put my face in his bowl of raw bison and he'd just eat around me.

This has been the case since we got him. To be fair, it is not the "I'm gonna attack you" growl it's the " this is really annoying" growl. He has never snapped or attacked and even when we get him up he is pretty calm and just exists and goes along with it.

Some circumstantial stuff that is relevant: he grew up in a house full of dogs, a woman and three girls who all constantly picked up the puppies and could hold them like rag dolls with no protest.....and then there was the husband/dad who all the puppies hated and growled at when he picked them up.

Interestingly, our friend Rhia (a woman) can pick him up just like she does Korra and he says nothing, no growling or protest.

Any advice or suggestions or explanations?? Is the gender issue really relevant you think??

Cheers.

No real advice here. But Cloud does the same to me, growls at me if I hold him. Abby can hold him with no problems but he likes Abby more I think e.o I think the reason Cloud hates being held is because he came from a pet store. Lots of people who just come in, hold the cute puppy, and leave. So I try not to hold Cloud much as I don't wish to stress him out.

I thought too Megan that he just doesn't like it but he doesn't mind at all when Rhia does it, which leads me to believe both that it is not a physical discomfort/medical issue and it is something related specifically to us (the gender issue being obvious but who knows if it is that).

We have established a good relationship with him and he definitely trusts us and respects us but I can't help but get frustrated when he does it because I interpret it as a lack of trust and/or respect.

And sometimes, practically, he just needs to be picked up (car, vet, hiking) and it disheartens me so bad to hear him growl since this is the only thing prompting it.

Also interesting, if he has his Webmaster harness on he does not growl when picked up by the handle for whatever reason. I could carry him like a briefcase (trust me please, I don't) and he wouldn't care one bit.

*sigh*

Of note too, we can easily move him physically otherwise with no problems, roll him over, belly rubs, grooming, playing all without protest.

seattlesibe wrote:

Of note too, we can easily move him physically otherwise with no problems, roll him over, belly rubs, grooming, playing all without protest.

Yeah, same with Cloud. I also said in my first note the same thing with Abby, Abby can hold him and he doesn't protest. He also wrestles with Cloud and Link just fine, and rolls around in bed with me asking for belly rubs. He is fine with grooming too.

Hmm, so how do you personally make sense of it?? What is it about you that makes Cloud dislike being picked up??

Because then the source is clearly you/me....

Koda does something similar to this.. He will literally let any stranger that he meets pet his belly he loves it!!! But 90% of the time when i try he bites at me. Not ageessive just play bites.. But he is getting to big for those play bites they hurt now.

so how do you make sense of it Eric??

I'm not really sure. It is kind of sad, Cloud and Yuki love Abby way more than me. Whenever they see her they pin their ears back and get all excited. But I kind of see it as a 'that's a friend we don't get to see every day' thing. I think thats also the reason Cloud lets Abby pick him up, but not me. Maybe he knows that I'm mom, and I handle him every day, and he really doesn't like to be picked up so he will let me know 'hey mom I really don't wanna be picked up'. But maybe since Abby is someone he doesn't get to see every day, letting her pick him up is part of how to get attention from her, so he allows it? Just what I think maybe.

Pippa is like this with me and my brother.

She doesn't growl with I pick her up, but she's weird about what she'll let me do to her. My brother literally lays on her on the couch and she doesn't move a muscle. If I try to do the same thing, she makes it very clear she wants me to stop.

It's not aggressive, like you guys said, but it is weird. I feed her everyday, I let her out, I run with her, but he's the one that can do whatever to her. It's annoying, but I just chalked it up to her playing favorites haha

That's an interesting way of thinking about it Megan and Katie, as a function of how much time they spend with us and how that creates a different dynamic, or perhaps simply a "well my favorite person can do X but you can not do X."

For us though in our case, Link does it to both my partner Patrick and myself. We definitely have different relationships with Link, but he does it the same to both of us.

So here's the next part of this, can this be trained away or conditioned away? I've had some success with training/conditioning protests with say grooming brushes and nail clippers and with his walking harness by using a clicker, yummy treats, and praise.

Is this growling issue a similar issue that can be handled this way?

My goal would be for him to not do this anymore because it is a form of stress or anxiety that is extremely isolated and very unnecessary.

Clicker training is so good for stuff like this where each moment can be isolated and rewarded/corrected. I wonder if this would work with the annoyance growling when he's picked up??

Just as a note, if a dog has ever been mistreated or mishandled in the past, they seem to remember (at least for a period of time) whether it was a male or a female. There's a dog that comes to the dog park who used to be really badly abused by males. To this day she is very weary of males and it took a long time for her to trust the owner's boyfriend.

So maybe just the way the father was holding them when they were pups or even if he was stressed or frustrated, it could have still been sticking with him.

Have you tried you or your partner giving him treats when you lift him? Give a treat before and as you lift, before he has a chance to growl, and then he might start to not get so annoyed about it anymore.

Also, where are you holding him when you pick him up? Some dogs can be particular with how they're held....

Nicky has done this ever since she was 7 weeks old. She growls and sounds really nasty if anyone tries to pick her up, hold her, cuddle, move her, or in any way dominate her. She's never snapped or shown teeth, so we kinda just laugh it off and say she's being a bitch. She's over a year now and still does it and I'm not sure why since she's always been spoiled rotten. My only guess is that it's just her personality, since my other two Huskies don't do this.

Quick video I just took from my Iphone to show an example. It's usually much worse, hard to video by myself.

I kind of think it could be a couple of different things, but, I don't think its a lack of trust or respect. I think if that were the case, it would manifest in other behaviors, not just in one way at one time. So, I'll throw out some ideas, some may not be even close, but who knows.

1. It could be, he hates being picked up in general, but realized the girls were never going to stop so he gave up fighting (hence rag doll), and maybe, the man realized he didn't like being held, and respected that and put him down. Maybe the puppies didn't 'hate' him, but realized he wasn't going to force interaction the same ways the girls would.

2. From his point of view, it might feel weird, or unnatural for you to pick him up. It seems like from my point of view, that you have worked extremely hard to create a very deep bond with Link that is a combination of mutual trust and respect, as well as leadership from you and your partner. So this aspect of you removing his feet from the ground somehow feels odd and violates that relationship. A stranger can do it, because they don't have the same connection with him.

3. One thing I've been thinking about lately, and might seem a little out there, but since you went to school in boulder (I saw you say that in another post), I'm guessing you're cool with that, is how dogs relate to the world. As humans, we tend to experience the world primarily with perception, but I think dogs experience it with proprioception. We are aware of the environment, a dog is less aware the environment, but more aware of their body relating to the environment. We see pavement, a dog feels foot on pavement, even if we're both walking together. To a dog, his foot is as equally 'him' as his nose, or his brain, whereas a person does not see their foot as self, but as a body part, we separate our physical body from 'self'. How does this relate to his behavior? It may not, but I think, there may be some physical signals, or micro expressions that you and other males may be sending, and Link is sensing that you might not be aware of. Something I've found really interesting is to do some very quick meditations to try and shift into proprioception when I relate with Dizzy, it has significantly changed our relationship and his behavior.

I think to overcome it, your plan of clicker training sounds like it could work to desensitize him. You could also start with him climbing into your lap while sitting, then kneeling, then squatting, then in a chair without arms, then finally standing. To be honest though, I'm not really a fan of treat training. Mostly because there will come a time where there is something more interesting than a treat, you hope he'll listen because of conditioning, but in my opinion, a smart dog will know they have a choice. You have have something more compelling than a treat, but I digress.

ah - Willow is the exact same way. My boyfriend Patrick tries to pick her up off the bed and she growls and gets pissy. When I picked her up, no issues. However, this morning I went to pick her up off the bed and she growled at me.

Would love to know if she's just being pissy and doesn't want to be picked up or what.

Kelly, Link's growling is very similar to your video. Definitely an annoyed growl, not an attack or painful growl.

I guess we pick him up in different ways depending on the situation, so if he's on something or needs to be put on a table or when he was smaller and needed help getting in the car then I guess there was a different method. We are definitely conscious of evenly supporting his weight and try to never pick him up by the armpits like a baby. If it's not a one hand under belly/one under ribs then it is more of a scoop with most of his weight behind him under his butt.

Jen, you're awesome. And for the record, I didn't go to Naropa and hang out with the mystics I went to CU-Boulder, so I was around a bunch of bros and jocks and sororities/fraternities and a bunch of rich white kids That said, I did study philosophy and micro sociology so I completely get and respect what you're saying

I think your #2 might be the most telling. I wonder if he perceives being picked up as a type of roughhousing or aggressive play? I mean when him in Korra play it sounds like two lion gladiators at war. By design, we never roughhouse with him or play box or play tug-of-war or wrestle or anything like that because we don't want to promote a battle of wills or aggressiveness or unnecessary excitement. The only thing I personally do with him like this is crawl around on all 4's and we chase each other and he'll play nip my calves and we kind of headbutt each other and it's great, but I don't let that escalate either.

So I wonder, that said, if being picked up is too invasive or rough for him coming from us? We expect him to respect our space when needed (while eating mostly) and we respect his space as well by providing him with lots of natural chews and a giant beanbag and he has never slept with us--always in his crate-- nor is he allowed on the sofa.

Link is definitely a close-proximity-but-not-on-you dog. He is very strongly bonded with us and we spend a ton of time walking and hiking and swimming and hanging out together in cafes/breweries and he is very very close to us quite a bit. Even the two times we went camping he spent all weekend off leash and never left us and he followed me around like my shadow. But he likes his space. He is always withing reach or even beneath us, but rarely touching us. Now that I think of it, he's just like me: an introverted Taurus who likes his space and his privacy...except around his doggie playmates.

But unless it is greeting him after being away for a bit, he never gets on us or sleeps/naps on us, never plays on our laps, or never solicits much physical contact on his own. We have been wanting him to for 3.5 months, but he's just not into it. He accepts it fine and we can pet or message him, clean his eye boogers, groom him, brush his teeth, bathe him, nuzzle him on his beanbag, kiss him......all which he is fine with it is just the picking up thing that seems to annoy him. The one thing he does is the leaning thing, Link is a leaner. He leans on my leg or sits right on my boot if he seems unsure of something or if we encounter a really unstable person or dog....this I greatly appreciate from him.

Your #3 reminds me of the wonderful book Inside of a Dog by Alexandra Harowitz dealing with the subjectivity and beingness of a dog, which I love. Like him or hate him and his physical methods aside, Cesar Millan has wonderful insights into this as well which I have learned to appreciate through his books.

It is certainly good food for thought. Thank you.

I am going to map out my clicker conditioning gameplan this evening and see if I can make any forward progress. If not, well Link is 35 pounds now and I'm guessing 75%ish of his total size so I won't be able to pick him up much longer anyway

UndarthAngipoo wrote:

Just as a note, if a dog has ever been mistreated or mishandled in the past, they seem to remember (at least for a period of time) whether it was a male or a female. There's a dog that comes to the dog park who used to be really badly abused by males. To this day she is very weary of males and it took a long time for her to trust the owner's boyfriend.

So maybe just the way the father was holding them when they were pups or even if he was stressed or frustrated, it could have still been sticking with him.

Angela, assuming that it is a gender issue, do you think that it is possible to still be a residual effect of his negative experience with a male in the first two months of his life that is now affecting his life with us in the past 3.5 months of his life?

I would think that he would have learned by now to move on past it with us in particular by now if it is a gender issue, but I guess I can't be certain. He has never shown any mistrust or discomfort or skepticism around men generally, but I also can't say I have ever seen him picked up by another man other than us 2 or the husband of the breeder. I think other than us 2 the only people to have ever picked him up are our vet, a woman, and our friend Rhia, a woman.

Just to add, Link does get squiggly after a little, unlike miss Korra who'd stay in your arms forever. I have a feeling it has to do with dad vs. that crazy aunt you grit your teeth and smile for.

Oh, hi Rhia In all seriousness, what's your take on it, as the woman in our life in question?

I hope you know by now that I don't have emotions so you can let 'er rip

Oh, hi Jeff I think everyone already have a ton of good ideas about what it could be, I don't really know. I just wanted to add that about 10 seconds of being held and he was squirming so I put him back down. I'm have a feeling if I started picking him up more I'd get the grumbles too. It could've been he wanted Korra to stop jumping and nipping his butt when I was carrying him, but I think he was just tolerating me, not enjoying it necessarily.

ok thanks. I was just trying to teach him how to spin, which is super easy by just having a treat and circling around behind their body, and he wasn't having it because it seemed like he was convinced I would try to grab him and pick him up. So sad

Aw I'd be majorly bummed if Korra wouldn't let me do stuff to her and let other people do it. Maybe you can work on it with the clicker and desensitization like you said. Even if he doesn't love being handled, if he hurts his foot or leg on a hike or something, at least you wont have to carry down a growling puppy. And for lifting him up or whatever else.
I remember being little and acting like an angel with strangers or even aunts, even though I was a gremlin with the parents. So is parenthood I guess, with human or fur babies.

Yeah, I'm gonna start clicker training with it. Of note though, we were just out back and he was chewing on a stick and I scooped him up from the chest and butt and he didn't make a peep, just kept chewing the stick......hmm.

Like...

...this? I do this to Korra all the time, this is an old pic and with a bully stick though of course. I used to do that as a way to keep her from squirming to get down before she had her shots. Hmmm.