I have mentioned it in other posts that Sirmiq has a problem guarding. He does not guard his food bowl or area, but he does guard all kinds of random stuff. About 4 months ago I realized we had a problem when I gave him an empty pop box and about 20 minutes later I walked by him and he growled. I have tried a variety of techniques, and while short term things seem to approve, long term he still guards. I have been thinking of asking the trainer we did our classes though to come in and help, but right now, I do not have the money. I know this is my fault, when we first got him I was working a 5 am to 2pm shift, and I would come home for lunch. I was tired and cranky and I had a short window of time to eat, feed him, take him poor, play for a few minutes, and get back to work. So I was doing a lot of taking from him instead of working on a proper drop command. So here is what we have tried.

Switch, he has a nasty Kleenex, so I try to switch it for a yummy treat. We have special treats we use only when working on this issue. He either tries to take the treat while still guarding the Kleenex, or takes the Kleenex and run. I know nasty Kleenex tastes so much better than cheese or chicken pieces right?

Play the patient waiting game while I try to take it from him. This one might not be positive reinforcement, but we have tried many different treats on the switch technique and none of them work, although he gobbles them up later when we to leave it/drop it practice. So basically I go for it he growls and snaps I give him the "ah ah" sound, and leave my hand there, he has very good bite inhibition, and I want him to know that snapping doesn't make my hand go away, and basically we play the waiting game until he gives up and I take the item. Once I take the item, I will treat him, only after he has stopped fixating on the object, or if the object is something he can have, after he stops fixating I will just give the object back since at the moment that has the highest value to him, even if it is just one of dozen sticks from outside. Normally after I give the item back, I will work on the drop and leave it command with that item, and as a reward, I will normally give a treat. I start just by placing the item on the ground and saying leave it, and then I click, pick up the item, and then treat. Then once he reliably leaves it and does not go for it, I will start holding one end, letting him chew the other, and then say drop it, treat repeat. And then finally I give him the item for like 30 secs, tell him to drop, treat and repeat until I feel like he's got the picture.

The problem is I do this consistently and I am still having this problem. I was wondering if you guys have any other ideas on what might help. Ways to stop guarding that you know about, or from what I described above is there something I am doing wrong, or missing from my technique? So far his snapping has been really gentle but I feel like we should have gotten somewhere by now and I really do not want it to get progressively worse. Therefore, any ideas that you guys might have to help me out would be appreciated.

I'm not a professional by any means and maybe I am just lucky to have a dog that listens fairly well, but I don't understand the idea behind the "switch" technique. To me it seems like if you're giving him a treat for giving you something that he shouldn't have than he's going to make an effort to continually find things like Kleenex because he associates those items with you giving him a treat.

In the few posts that you have had about this I see a recurring theme. Is he a very dominant dog? Since he is guarding stuff from both you and Kiwi I'm thinking that he doesn't completely understand his place among the "pack." The one thing that I have done ever since I got Sitka was to make sure to roll him on his back and expose his belly any time that he is getting dominant. I do this at dog parks, when he's trying to take something that's mine and when he's around other dogs that he's dominant over. From what I understand when a dog is in a vulnerable position like having his belly exposed it acts as a way of making him humble and showing that he's not the leader.

Try rolling him on his back when he acts this way. The ease at which he'll let you do that will give you an idea as to where he feels that he stands in comparison to you. If he struggles it means that he doesn't see himself as a "lesser" to you or to the dogs around him.

My aunt adopted a very dominant dog and it took her over 3 years to get the dog to allow her to turn her on her back. It was a constant struggle, but once her place in the "pack" was secured and she realized that she wasn't an equal to her owners than the problems started to quickly dwindle away.

Great thread.

Edit: I thought about combing this thread and your "teasing" thread but I think they are two slightly different issues and that they both are great resources for any future members that might want to do a search.

Yea I never understood the switching thing either, but I was trying to be postive reinforcement. I quickly saw it wasn't getting anywhere so went to the more claim the toy type approach. I was hoping that would be enough but you are probably right, I am probably going to have to do something like the roll, although I don't know how comfortable I feel doing that right now when he is in that state, it is hard enough for me to not move away when he snaps. That is why I was thinking about getting the trainer.

He definitely has a more dominate attitude than Kiwi, but it is wierd. She humps him a lot and he doesn't really do it to her. If I am sitting on the couch and I leave to get something, he will sometimes jump in my spot, but all I have to do is tell him either "over" or "off" and he moves. Although the fact he jumps in my spot in the first place might be a sign of dominance, I don't really know.

Don't start introducing the roll when he's doing something like you stated or when he's in that mood. I'd just make it a routine thing to get him to roll on his back a few random times a day. This will instill a more submissive attitude into him. If Kiwi watches that's fine too. After you've gotten him to roll on his back comfortably you can start working that in as part of his discipline.

Koda will do the couch spot taking thing. I've never seen it as a sign of dominance, I always saw it as more of a separation anxiety issue... but maybe you're right on that one? I don't know.

It took us a few months to be able to get Koda to lie on his back for us. Here's how we did it:

-Start by just coming up to him when he is lying down and petting him, always telling him he's a good boy. Get your face close to his and cuddle his neck... always praising.
-After a few times of doing this, keep doing it, but straddle him when you do it. Again, keep with the petting and the "good boy" praises
-When he is comfortable with you doing this, try GENTLY rolling him onto his back when you are on top. He may struggle, so don't be too rough or anything, but try to coax him gently onto his back. If you can, immediately cuddle him and praise (with you still being on top of him).
-Once he's calm and his body relaxes, then you can get off, but make sure he has released at least SOME tension first.

Don't confuse this with Alpha Rolling. That is a technique that is best left to a trainer to show you, or at least maybe Linzi might be able to describe it properly to you. It can be very dangerous and you don't want to hurt your dog or yourself. This technique is just something that we did with Koda gradually over time and it has made him more submissive.

Also- I agree that the switching thing might be seen as a game by Sirmiq. I would try working on guarding separately (I couldn't tell from your post how much you do already). I would have 5-10 min sessions with him involving any amount of toys where he can play with them, and then switch them out. I wouldn't use a command, I would just do it. No treats, just praise. At the end you can treat him. I know you do NILIF training with them, but maybe reinforcing this even more so? Making him do extra tricks or commands before he gets rewarded?

I'm going to stop beause I'm not a trainer either, but maybe Linzi or Gloria or the other more experienced people might have something to add.

Thanks for the advice guys. I did let me roll him on his back last night, He seemed to except a belly rub, but I am assuming this is the wrong time for it. Le me know though. Although I didn't strandle him, I don't know what he would think of that. I will have to add that in. I think I will just add it to our routine.

I will get a firmer no next time he guards. I will try to toy overload technique that you guys discribed. Right now I guess I have been waiting for him to gaurd to try to work on the problem, which is maybe why it isn't working so well. So I definitely will do this excercise with him, probably nightly at first and then just add it to my weekly routine.

The only reason why I thought jumping might be a sign of dominance possibly, was that months ago (he doesn't do it anymore) when my boyfriend would come to bed (me and the dogs were already there) he growled at him a couple of times. The first one to bed always got in bed first and then gave the "in bed command". And only if the dogs sat patiently waiting. But we never really did it with the 2nd person coming to bed because we didn't want to wake the other up. We started to though and now he just gets down on his own when my boyfriend comes to bed.

I have one more quick question. In the interm, until the activity and the rolling seem to take effect how should I deal with it, should I do what I do now, just ignore, or something else completely?

Right now If i walk near him and he tenses up and tries to hide the object with his paw or chin, I will just stand near him, blocking him from running, until he relaxes. After he does sometimes I will just walk away without aknowledgeing him, and other times I will pet his head, muzzle, mouth, and work down to touching the item while he is chewing it.

If I get near him and he lifts his lip, snarls, or snaps I do that whole taking it from him thing I talked about in my first post. I take it from him until he stops fixating and then go into training mode.

Also, LInzi you asked what kind of stuff he guards, completely random crap.
Here is a pic of something he started guarding when I went outside to smoke.



It is like a dried up palm leaf thing. If it was just certian toys, rawhides or bones, I would just do what Chad and Tori suggested in my other post about only letting him have it in his crate. But I can never tell what is going to be the most important thing in the world to him. And something he guards one day, he might give a rats ass about the next.

LOL. I can't believe you took a picture of a dead palm leaf!

I had a post that said more but my browser decided to stop working so here's the short version.
Thanks agian Linzi, I appreciate your advice becuase you seem to be on of those people who give advice on what works and what actually helps, not based on what school of dog training you belong to. In fact I think everyone on this forum right now is like that.

I will try to get a video next time, my camera has that function but they are crappy. It should be enough though for you to get the picture of how he acts. Snarl might have been to strong of a word, but if I didn't know Sirmiq I would not approach him while he was like that.

I know for sure it is not play, he does play those come and try to get my toy away from me games but it is different. Like his body goes to to the bow, and if I don't chase him he will come closer to me to try to tease me. And with Kiwi too, when he gaurds from her he doesn't move, he just stays in one place. When they are playing it is as you said, a doggie olympics.

I haven't tried the loud sound, although I have tried the redirection. If he wants to get whatever I throw, he will pick up the item he is guarding first.

I really don't believe the underlining cause is dominance. It very well could be that now, I'm not dominate enough so he doesn't take me seriously, but I really feel I did this too him when I was working those crappy early morning shifts. Once I got a new job I was all gun ho on training but I think the damage was already done. We crated him for a long time, but before we went to bed, as we were watching tv in the bedroom we would let him play with us in bed and on the floor. Everynight he would get into something, and he kinda learned when one of us would say, "what does he have know" that means he might get something taken away. We stopped saying that, and tried to get him to come to us and show us what he had, but he doesn't understand fetch, so didn't really get the show me command, although I still work on it with him. Any suggestions on how to teach this might help.

It has seemed to get worse with Kiwi though. I tried to think back and I don't think we ever took anything away from him to give to Kiwi, unless he stole it from her. I think I might keep track of when he gaurds, it does seem more to be in the evening, I can't recall though if Kiwi is always around when he does it.

Oh good- I thought you were just missing a few brain cells

well there is that too but shhhhhh thats our secret lol

Thought I would give an update. I have been doing the rolling on the back activity and the toy overload one. I have also taken a more active roll in the interactions between Kiwi and Sirmiq. Instead of just letting them work things out themselves when it comes to stuff SIrmiq guards, I have been setting some boundries. Like making them give each other space and such.

Things aren't perfect yet, but they are improving. Ideally I would like to see Sirmiq when I say "Leave it," move fully away from the object. Today he had a stick. I went out side to smoke and he did his normal try to hide it from me. I told him "Leave it" and he tried to still hide it with his paws but he moved his head away from it. I was able to reach down and grab it first try with no snaping or showing teeth. We made sure to make a huge deal out of it. He got the stick back and a nice massage/back scratch out of it.

I know I still have a ways to go with it, but this is the biggest improvement I have had in sometime. I'm not sure what has the biggest impact, it is probably a combination of the 3 things, but I just wanted to say thanks for the advice, and I will keep you guys posted.

YAY! Glad to see Sirmiq doing better That's great news Keep us updated