An issue came up on another topic that I think is an important issue in its own right, and should have a thread of its own. So, what's the big deal about buying a puppy from a pet store? If no one bought it, it would probably just end up in a kill shelter, so the buyer is actually rescuing the puppy right? One puppy won't do any harm. Below are a couple good sources of information on where pet store puppies come from and the kind of business you're supporting if you buy one. The first is from Forbes and the second is a study done by the veterinary school at the University of Pennsylvania. The video is a trailer for a documentary HBO did about puppy mills.

"Puppy mills will continue to exist as long as people buy puppy mill puppies. 99 percent of all puppies in pet stores come from puppy mills. So if people stop buying from pet stores, if people stop buying over the internet, puppy mills will dry up. It’s a question of supply and demand."

"You’re getting a dog that cost $1,000 to $2,000 that cost the farmer $50 to $75 to raise. There’s 100 percent chance that puppy is going to have parasites or some kind of disease. There’s almost a 50 percent chance that  dog is going to die or have a serious illness within the first year.

So you’re buying a defective product at over-inflated prices, even if you don’t care about what happens to that puppy’s parents, it’s a bad, bad deal for the consumer."

"It’s kind of a shadowy industry.  It’s a multi-billion dollar business. The USDA keeps track of how many animals are trafficked, but not the dollars and cents. That one example in the film, The Hunt Coporation had 88,000 dogs they had transported, and say they’re $2,000 apiece, that’s $176,000,000.  It’s a big, big business."

Source: Allen St. John, Contributor, Forbes http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/22/where-not-to-buy-a-dog-the-pet-store-connection-to-the-business-of-puppy-mills/

On behavior:

"In the first large-scale study of its kind, Penn researchers have found evidence that puppies purchased from pet stores show an increased prevalence for behavioral problems as adults."

"The researchers hypothesized that the turbulent early lives of dogs in commercial breeding facilities planted the seeds for future undesirable behaviors. But the extent of the abnormalities in dogs sourced from large-scale breeders was a surprise."

"Not only did pet store puppies fare worse in 12 of 14 behavioral variables measured, they did not score better on any measure."

"Serpell says puppies that end up in pet stores often live a disrupted early life and tend to be poorly socialized; he says they are weaned and separated from their litters too early."

"Until the causes of the differences detected in puppies from pet stores can be specifically identified and remedied, Serpell and McMillan say they cannot recommend that puppies be obtained from pet stores."

Source: Penn Current, May 16, 2013 http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/2013-05-16/latest-news/penn-vet-study-finds-pet-store-puppies-come-increased-risk

On puppy mills:

Love this. The notion that you are "saving" this puppy is so far from the truth. By you "saving" this puppy, you are opening that puppies cage for 1 more puppy. If five people come in and buy puppies, that's 5 more cages that need a puppy...

It's so common sense I don't even understand it.

Also because most puppies are forced to live in crates; crate training is 10x harder because they're used to laying in their urine/feces...I feel like this should be a sticky

It is the same principle as buying products made in a child labor supported sweatshop. If enough people are made aware of the conditions then more people will choose not to buy their products from a source that is abusive.

Many of us made this mistake when we were younger or ill-informed, but hopefully all of us that learn we have made this mistake will not make it again. Shaqua was from a pretty bad puppy mill, considered one of the worst. (Mar-Don Kennels, you can look it up. Chillicothe, MO). I was 17 at the time. I LOVE Shaqua, she is the best dog ever and she has been incredibly healthy. She's 11 years old and has never had a health problem. HOWEVER I would never be able to buy from a kennel like that again knowing that I would essentially be using my hard-earned money to tell them it's ok.

A lot of the puppies that come from these places are great dogs. Shaqua is one of them. But honestly, no one should knowingly support such a practice. Same reason I buy a box of girl scout cookies even though they cost more than the store brand and why I get s subcription to National Geographic instead of Cosmo. I like to support what I believe in and the biggest voice you have is the money you spend.

I'm not very familiar with pet store practices on puppies that are unsold. Do they end up going to a shelter if they remain unsold for an extended period of time or are they sent back to the mill? Should people that want them just wait to get them until after they've made it to the shelter or should these puppies be avoided like the plague regardless since studies seem to have deem them unfit? I don't mean to rub anyone wrong, that's not my intent and I'm sorry if I do. I hate puppy mills and I would like it stopped too, but I hate the idea of dooming tons of puppies because they were unlucky enough to be born into such a greedy industry.

They keep reducing the price lower and lower if they still don't sell they're sent back to the puppy mill, they might end up in shelters but I believe they get sent back to the mill probably to get bred over and over again. It's a sad cycle

I don't agree with high volume breeders, but I will say this: Do not fall into the trap of Animal Rights Activists. These same people drug show dogs and euthanize whole sledding kennels.

Puppy mills are horrible, but so are PeTA and HSUS. The best way to put a stop to this is following animal legislation and calling your AC, the AKC (if they are breeding AKC dogs) or the USDA (commercial breeders have to be licendsed). The best people to shut down these mills are the animal WELFARE supporters - like the majority of us.

Just don't be naive, the AR people are after the hobby breeders, good racing kennels and good show kennels as well...

Well said Megan. They are pretty much opposed to the production of dogs whatsoever, and needless to say they are thus opposed to pure bred dogs existing at all for any purpose, practical or not.

PETA is a whack job
their shelters kill 89%of the animals that go in the they don't even try to rehome them they literally take them then lead them in the back and euthanize them

PETA kills way more then 89%, pretty sure it is actually 98%, but don't quote me on that.

Here:

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/downloads/peta_inspection.pdf

>.< no I will never buy from pet stores at a young age i watched animal cops and was introduced to the horrors of puppy mills. Every animal I've owned was a personal rescue, except my hamsters i bought those.

amora wrote:

Also because most puppies are forced to live in crates; crate training is 10x harder because they're used to laying in their urine/feces...I feel like this should be a sticky

Sorry just had to chime in, not always true. It's not also true about 100% of the time, the dog having a parasite or other disease. I got Cloud from a pet store, he was 100% healthy when I got him, when Yuki on the contrary had roundworms when I got her. I expected crate training to be a pain and a total nightmare, but he never made one single mess in his crate, not one, and only had two or three accidents in my bedroom the first week I had him and then was house trained. Completely. I am by no means an advocate of pet stores and will always support reputable breeders, however I just wanted to share my experience as I feel its a little unfair to say ALL dogs with have health or mental problems.

However also wanted to add I feel very lucky with Cloud. Behavior wise he seems fine, which I also though would be a nightmare due to me getting him later in age, but he's a well-rounded social guy. I was talking to a couple ladies at the dog park a couple weeks ago, one of them happened to be the boarding assistant for the vet I take my pups to. My vet is also the vet who takes care of all the pet stores dogs where I got Cloud. The lady at the park told me that at least 4 die a week in the vets office and that roughly 1/4 of the dogs that the store gets in die within the first couple weeks. I definitely think Cloud was in the minority, being that he is pretty well socialized, has no health defects (yet), and is mentally stable. But knowing all the details I know now, even if there was another Cloud situation where he was older and being clearanced out, I don't think I could buy from a pet store again. I would rather adopt from a shelter where I know my money will be used to help other dogs that need homes.

mbarnard0429 wrote:

I don't agree with high volume breeders, but I will say this: Do not fall into the trap of Animal Rights Activists. These same people drug show dogs and euthanize whole sledding kennels.

Puppy mills are horrible, but so are PeTA and HSUS. The best way to put a stop to this is following animal legislation and calling your AC, the AKC (if they are breeding AKC dogs) or the USDA (commercial breeders have to be licendsed).  The best people to shut down these mills are the animal WELFARE supporters - like the majority of us.

Just don't be naive, the AR people are after the hobby breeders, good racing kennels and good show kennels as well...

Good point! I only recently realized how radical the HSUS is. I think, if I remember correctly, a lot of them are against pet ownership for any reason. I could be wrong on that.

I actually have not learned much about the radical HSUS and would like to learn more.

History, I have done it all "found", got from an accidental litter, rescued, kind of pet store bought, CKC hobby breeder bought, and AKC breeder bought. The found huskymix lived to 16 with no real problems, The accidental litter (show Himy/barn cat) kitty lived to 17 with just UTI, the kind of pets store is a Petsmart (ASPCA adoptable) kitty that passed from F Luk at 7, the rescued husky aussie Beka is going strong at 11 with CCD, the hobby aussie Baylin is a "big" girl of 5 and out of standard (tail not bobbed, fault shyness/fear), and last but not least there is Bourbon.

Each one of these has its pros and cons based on where I was in my life. But yes if you buy/adopt or get from place A you are supporting place A. That is the main point your support. The thing I think of is would I or should I do that again. It is all about the research. I have come across this one thought in all of it. I have paid money for a pet, services etc and I see benefit in every one I brought into my family. So there will always be reasons to rescue and reason to purchase.

Silly story: Butkis found us at college he was probaly dumped. We got Beka as a HS rescue as our's / dog's companion cause we thought she looked exactly as our husky mix (husky GSD wolf) would have as a pup. They said husky shepherd yup aussie not gsd but she is great. Well we got Baylin our Aussie from a hobby breeder because we loved the aussie qualities in Beka, yep she has them she is quirkythen we got Bourbon as Baylins playmate cause we had to have the husky back the aussie quirks were exccessive. So offtopic but they all rescued me. I can not say that I would not AKC or CKC another dog but I would do what was right at that time.

Back on topic I believe that rescue is the best but as you can see I have not always rescued for one reason or another. I do not think we can say they are ALL bad but I think we can all say that puppy mills are bad and we do not like them.

Sorry I went all over the place thinking of I should have rescued when I did not, but I would not do over any of my babies. I do not think I could petstore except the little boutique down the stret that gets there pups from breeders which I am finding out are the same 6-7 breeders in Ohio that you can find out there as hobbyists but even that scares me a little cause they still sell the pup without know the owner. They happen to have siberians that they breed too. I have to check some more on them to get to the bottom of these other hobby breeders as it sounds like a puppy mill with out the excess or cruelty. So is it a puppy mill or breeders who bonded and opened a store?

So I went on and on. You all have good points there and I like this thread lets hear everyones thoughts.

HuskyLear wrote:

I do not think I could petstore except the little boutique down the stret that gets there pups from breeders which I am finding out are the same 6-7 breeders in Ohio that you can find out there as hobbyists but even that scares me a little cause they still sell the pup without know the owner. They happen to have siberians that they breed too.  I have to check some more on them to get to the bottom of these other hobby breeders as it sounds like a puppy mill with out the excess or cruelty. So is it a puppy mill or breeders who bonded and opened a store?

There is a chain Pet Store around here like that. They don't fit your typical nasty pet store image, and they supposedly get their dogs from "hobby breeders". These breeders may not be puppy mills, per se, but there is no way they are responsible breeders if they don't care where their puppy ends up. And they sure as sh** don't do health testing. They may not be a large scale mill, but they are still in it only for the money.

That is what I thought about them but then found out that the store owners have a farm a kennel and sibs. The clerk said that the sibes we health checked, eye and hip checked, and the sir DNA registered. So I was gonna research not that I was gonna get one now. I do know that they all (not just the sib) have a health gaurantee. They have an application and questionaire which I liked, Bourbons breeder never asked anything except why I wanted the dog...mentioned myself as aprevious husky owner so taht may well be why he did not question anything else. Wish he asked more though.

I have heard from others that some "puppy mills" are turning into these boutique store which is why I was looking at it. So far even when people complain that there pups are in cage...10-15 pups but they have 30-40 pups for sale so they must not all "stay" at the store. I am trying to check it out......then I saw online that they say if you saw it online please call for an appt so the animal can be at the store.

All sounds like a little better but you are right it might be just a small scale. Will keep investigating!

No store in Michigan can legally sell a puppy without that breeders being a USDA licensed commercial breeder...no hobby breeders would do that it
S expensive and unnecessary.

wpskier222 wrote:

Good point! I only recently realized how radical the HSUS is. I think, if I remember correctly, a lot of them are against pet ownership for any reason. I could be wrong on that.

That is correct. I remember way back in the 80s when Dr Michael Fox of the HSUS had a newspaper column in our local paper. In one of his articles he was going on and on about how we shouldn't ever kill mosquitoes, fleas, or ticks because they have a right to live too.   Meanwhile, they (both HSUS and PETA - at least the higher up in the organizations) think it's okay to kill or turn loose people's pets because "they would be happier dead or roaming the streets than they are being 'owned' by someone." They have money, an agenda, and marketing skills, which is a dangerous combination.

mbarnard0429 wrote:

No store in Michigan can legally sell a puppy without that breeders being a USDA licensed commercial breeder...no hobby breeders would do that it
S expensive and unnecessary.

Ah ok. I guess I used the word hobby incorrectly. I basically meant a smaller scale breeder.

mbarnard0429 wrote:

No store in Michigan can legally sell a puppy without that breeders being a USDA licensed commercial breeder...no hobby breeders would do that it
S expensive and unnecessary.

Megan I know the place I am talking about uses licensed breeders (they say) investigating.
Here is my question...does that mean if you are a hobby kennel that you are not licensed as a breeder....I always used that name hobby because that is what the kennel owners called themselves a small family owned and orientated hobby kennel.

The only other breeder I dealt with is an AKC registered breeder but I am slowly learning that just cause they are AKC does not make them good.What does it exactly mean if their sir DNA profile is on file with the AKC? THat does not neccessarily mean testing was done does it?

HuskyLear wrote:

Here is my question...does that mean if you are a hobby kennel that you are not licensed as a breeder....I always used that name hobby because that is what the kennel owners called themselves a small family owned and orientated hobby kennel.

The only other breeder I dealt with is an AKC registered breeder but I am slowly learning that just cause they are AKC does not make them good.What does it exactly mean if their sir DNA profile is on file with the AKC? THat does not neccessarily mean testing was done does it?

A hobby breeder is one who spends much more than they make breeding puppies. This is due to the large expense with health testing and proving the breeding stock (either in the show ring or other events). Also, they only have 0 - 2 litters a year. However, some BYB try to call themselves "hobby breeders" without doing these things, so the true meaning of hobby breeding has been lost.
A DNA profile on a dog generally means he has been bred more than a certain number of times. (I forget the exact number at the moment). It could be because he's a top show/stud dog, or it could be because he's part of a puppy mill. It has nothing to do with health testing.

Hobby Breeder seems to be a middle ground term being appropriated by puppy mill types to gain integrity and distance themselves away from the increasing stigma and notoriety of being a puppy mill. It's sort of a semantic moral chess match.  Middle ground of course between them and a reputable ethically aware breed specialty breeder.

Of course for anyone or any organization who wholesale denounces pet ownership, pure bred dogs, or domestication this chess match is futile because they see no degrees of morality or ethics with regards to animals.

It's all very sticky.

DNA profile with the AKC can mean any number of things. My pup's dam was imported from Spain, so it was required to submit her DNA to the AKC in order to register her and her offspring.

Michigan Legislation:

http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-1569_16979_21259---,00.html


A Hobby Breeder is someone who shows/works their dogs as a hobby. They do not make money off of their dogs and do not do it for commercial purposes - this does not include backyard breeders.