Hey all, question for you.

When we talk about what makes a "reputable" dog breeder, we usually discuss the same general areas of notice.

1. Does the breeder hip and eye certify both the dam and the sire?

2. Are the dam and sire of healthy, quality lines? (as usually made evident by notes of show winners, champion sires, etc.)

3. Does the breeder have the parents on site?

4. Does the breeder properly ween and socialize the puppies (in the house!)?

5. Does the breeder have a spay/neuter contract, and puppy return policy.

6. Does the breeder keep the litter together with the parents for a minimum of 8 weeks?

7. Are the puppies up to date on all vaccinations, dewormings?


I found a man who has a litter of red males and females, and I am very interested in potentially adopting a pup. I spoke to the breeder at some length over the phone, and was sure to ask him each of the questions i have written above. The man isn't a breeder per se. He has a male and female, and wanted both of them to have a litter because of he and his vet's philosophy that, in the end, it's what all animals are born to do, mate. So his idea is that a dog has a litter and it completes the dog's life objective making the dog more mature, yada yada yada.

Anyway. The dam is 5 years old, and the sire is 2.5. He had the hips and eyes of both dogs checked at 2 years, has the paperwork to prove it, and both dogs check out healthy. The parents of the litter are his two dogs, so they are both on site, and after all of the puppies are gone, he plans to have the two dogs fixed. It was a large litter of ten! But he assures me that all puppies are raised and sleep in the house, only going outside for play sessions in his large back yard. The puppies are 10 weeks old as of today, and he started adopting them out at 9 weeks. The puppies have all had their first round of vaccinations, and dewormings. He wants to me to agree to a spay/neuter contract.

My guts tell me that this is a good guy. He has done everything the right way, and has all of the documentation to prove it. He isn't necessarily breeding to "better the breed", but he did do it to better his two dogs, at least in his own mind.

He is going to email me pictures of the parents tonight, but I wanted y'alls thoughts on this. He seems about as legit as he can be without being a big time breeder.

Also, he is only selling the pups for 500 a piece, so he isn't exactly in it for the money either, as a litter of 10 ALL red and whites, could fetch a pretty astounding price.

Thanks for reading!

Saphire's breeder is also what you would call a "small scale" breeder. The only difference I can see is that Saphire's breeder's female has show titles and her male has working titles.

I think the reason we ask all of these questions is to ensure that the breeder is taking the proper precautions to ensure that the pups and the parents are safe, healthy and happy. Sounds to me like this guy is doing all of those things.

I would recommend that you visit and see the dogs and their living conditions for yourself. Pictures can be deceiving and you can't really tell how old the pictures are. So going to look at their current conditions helps to ensure that things are on the up and up.

The only question I have left to ask: "Is there a purpose for the breeding?" How do you know the lines are structurally sound, have low prevalence of JC or even epilepsy?

What makes his dogs good candidates for breeding? Remember, the real goal is a healthy puppy.

Make sure YOU get the OFA/CERF numbers and check them. I'm not saying he's a liar, but I know of multiple breeders using false numbers.

I agree with Megan. While it sounds like he's doing the right things, what about his two dogs makes them good candidates to breed structurally sound puppies? THAT is why most people want to see titles on their dogs. Not because titles mean anything amazing, but because it's usually the first (not only) indicator that the breeder is trying to better the breed by selecting two dogs who are going to create a structurally sound and desirable offspring.

I could breed my two(note, they're spayed, just saying'!) and do everything by the book, but it still would not be the right thing to do and be a disservice because neither of mine have anything to contribute in the working or show world, even with Koda having nice lines. Ill always say, leave it to the pros.

I really can't stand people who view dogs' purpose to mate or think they need the experience. So, those puppies he is producing... Doesn't he believe all of them should mate? Ironic he said he wants them fixed.
Sick to me. Not a very good reason to bring new life in the world.

However, if you are set on the a puppy and they're already born, why not give one a chance? I see nothing wrong with going with one of his puppies, its not as if you are supporting a backyard breeder by doing so. The only thing I would do is go with Megan's advice in checking the OFA/CERF numbers yourself. Just my opinion.

Edit* And going to the house and seeing parents/living conditions yourself.

While I agree that he is A LOT more responsible then a rather large number of "breeders", I would want to see the living conditions of the whole family before choosing one way or another on the puppy. I like a lot of the things this guy is doing, honestly. I would also want to know where he got his two current dogs. If he got them from a breeder, you can do some background searching. If he got them from a rescue, or craigslist, or something like that, you really have no idea if those puppies are going to be healthy. Having eyes and hips checked are only two things on a long line of list of health concerns that need to be checked for.

And honestly, I would have no problem buying a puppy from him. You could have found a lot worse. Remember you can also find better though. So I guess MY concern that if I were to buy one of his puppies is where he got the parents and if I could see their vet records and the living condition of the whole family.

Here are the parents. The male is the one with the party eye.

Both pretty good examples of the breed IMO.

Do you want opinions or no? I don't want to.provideone if it isn't asked

for.

Well the 'reason' for breeding is a poor one. And unfortunately you can do all the health testing out there that still doesn't guarantee the parent's are of actual breed type and quality to be passing on their genes. I'd agree with Megan, view the OFA/CERF get the numbers and double check to the registry....and I would offer an opinion on the parents if it was wished as well.

Sorry for typos, I was on my phone - it makes me illiterate.

2nd dog is weird looking to me, first is very pretty but by no means a shining example of husky standard. I'm just going ahead and saying it because if you post something, you open the door for comments in my mind.

I'm picky, I'd never buy from that situation and would rather go to a reputable breeder where I can thoroughly look into the lines and really know their dogs and practices. While they may have better practices and not be doing it to earn cash, this IS still a BYB. Plain and simple.
I will always say it's one thing to walk into something not knowing better, but when you have the knowledge to make better choices, and don't, well...
The fact you felt the need to come on here and ask opinions says enough. You should be fully confident in where you are getting your dog from and not need validation.


By the way, I mean no offense or to come across badly, I didn't know how to phrase anything any more mild, haha. Just so no one reads a nasty tone...

While this falls into that gray area between a "bad backyard breeder" and a "good, reputable breeder" that everyone talks about...it's not a situation I would willingly go into. This person seems to be more on the "good" side of the backyard breeder end - but it doesn't make them "reputable" or "good" - though it depends on who you ask.

I would try and find out the lineage of the parents. While OFA and CERF can give you information on what potential problems the parents might have - it doesn't do you much good if you don't know the history of the dogs behind those ones and what those dogs have produced. Without knowing what the other dogs in the line have produced you won't know what defects to look for to show up or what the dogs could possibly be carriers of.

Glad Ceara pipes in. That's what I mean by not all CH are created equal.

The more I read the comments of those who have "been around the block"; I am starting to see more of the "darker" side to his breeding. I guess I was just surprised by someone who in reality is a BYB went so far as to do hip and eye tests. The shock factor to that kinda won me over. The more I read the more holes I see where a red flag would be raised.

Even when you think you have a pretty decent knowledge of something, you still have so much to learn.

Sheba&Kennedy wrote:

Even when you think you have a pretty decent knowledge of something, you still have so much to learn.

One can never stop learning. When you choose to stop learning - it's time for you to quit whatever it is you are doing and move on.

Niraya wrote:

Sheba&Kennedy wrote:

Even when you think you have a pretty decent knowledge of something, you still have so much to learn.

One can never stop learning. When you choose to stop learning - it's time for you to quit whatever it is you are doing and move on.

This made me smile So true.

I wouldnt have popped on here and asked if I didn't want reality. I know this place isn't going to tell me what I want to hear lol.



I understand and respect all of the opinions and facts people have given to me. He definitely isn't nearly as shady as some of the othe rpeople I have dealt with (I have now been led to believe twice that pups I have either fostered or adopted for myself have come from strong reputable breeders, only to find out I wa lied to later). At least this guy is forthcoming about things.

At this point, I understand the idea of "I wouldn't willingly walk into that situation", but.. The puppies are born and alive, they are going to be adopted to someone. I know I provide an excellent home and quality of life for any animal living in this house. So I know at least one dog from the litter would have a home that it deserves.

I am going to go into my meeting with him tomorrow as open minded as I can be, ask a few more questions, and meet the parents and pups for myself.

Fingers crossed I dont get caught up in puppy fever when i see all the little munchkins!

Thanks again all!

I know this comment isn't going to live up to my nickname, but please allow me a moment.

MyKeeonah wrote:

but.. The puppies are born and alive, they are going to be adopted to someone. I know I provide an excellent home and quality of life for any animal living in this house. So I know at least one dog from the litter would have a home that it deserves.

This comment is why BYBs will ALWAYS have a job. If you were getting a puppy for free, sure, MAYBE I could understand that. But you're not. You're taking your money and putting it into his hands. That's why EVERYONE goes to BYBs..."Well, they are alive. I can save one." If that is how you look at it, do the dogs a favor and go walk into a shelter and pick one out. Save one of THOSE lives. Don't make the mistake of equating this man's litter with rescue. How much you want to bet he still would have bred the litter if he couldn't have recouped the money he spent having it? You think he still would have believed that's the "dog's purpose" if he was going to have to spend about $1500+ just to let the dogs do what they are here to do naturally? I don't think so.

^^^ I agree with what Tori said 150%.

Quote :

but.. The puppies are born and alive, they are going to be adopted to someone. I know I provide an excellent home and quality of life for any animal living in this house. So I know at least one dog from the litter would have a home that it deserves.

Sorry to say I'm with Tori 100% as well.

I'm absolutely sure you provide a very loving and caring environment and home, and all that comes across is that you do truly want to help and provide for these puppies. That however doesn't excuse why they were born to begin with.

It is a cash grab, pure and simple. If they aren't breeding for the betterment of the breed or for a specific job or purpose then they are being bred specifically to be sold.

Nothing against you, but like Tori said, as long as people think that way and keep buying the resource these people are going to keep selling. With as many pups that are in Kill Shelters and many many rescues running at 100% capacity I can't advocate that.

In the end it is your choice... All I'm saying is the loving home and environment you could give this puppy could also be given to a dog currently in a rescue or shelter too. Many times pureblood and with little to no issues.

~Chris~

Koda wrote:

If that is how you look at it, do the dogs a favor and go walk into a shelter and pick one out. Save one of THOSE lives.

While I agree with rescuing, I disagree with this quote. All dogs deserve a home regardless of whether they're in a pet store, backyard breeder, reputable breeder, shelter, or rescue. No ones going to be able to stop backyard breeder, and even if Sean doesn't buy one of these pups, someone stupid probably will, and then that pup will be just another shelter dog that needs a home.

You've seen the parents, you've seen the health tests, you've seen the living conditions. If you want a pup, I'd say go for it. I wish you good luck.

Not entirely true - if the person is as "good" as the claims, that would mean they're doing extensive screening of all homes ensuring that those puppies are going to the best possible homes.

By that token - even if he doesn't get one, the puppy probably won't end up in a shelter due to this persons screenings.

At this point it's more of a moral decision and how you can justify it to yourself. But one should NEVER claim to be "rescuing" a puppy using that justification. In the end - you are paying to continue someone's practice* ( I say this simply because until I have seen proof of spay/neuter - I don't believe some random persons word. I've heard too many people say "this is our only litter than it's spay/neuter!" and then lo and behold half a year later they have an "opps" litter ironically just before the "spay/neuter" was going to happen)

And if everyone would LEARN and do the proper research and realize that by not purchasing from these types of people - the unethical, irresponsible and poor breeders would start to come to an end.

This reminds me of my situation nearly two years ago when I went to pick up my guy Koda from a small scale BYB in Alabama. I was torn between purchasing a pup from Chastain's Siberian Huskies or this elderly couple who are breeders, and mainly the cost & looks of the dog I wanted were the topics that had me on the fence.

On one hand, the breeder I purchased Koda from had both parents on site, AKC registered sire & dam and eligibility to do so for the pups and they were good looking dogs. I also received their pedigree, with the last 3-5 generations shown. I hadn't noticed any aggression or sickly looking animals when I went to visit, although they had them kenneled outside. The pups had received their shots, but did have worms (he was treating them with a medication Koda was on when I got him, but the eggs were already in the backyard) which were quickly taken care of in Koda's case. He sold the all white & black/white pups for $400. Now the huskies at Chastain's are most certainly show quality with champions in their lines, etc., but I didn't have the $750-1000 to pay for only the puppy, since I had to also take into account the vet bills & a "just in case" fund I set up for emergencies. In my case, I believe my breeders were limited to what all they could provide because of their age.

I had done my research, but most certainly didn't learn what I now know within the last two years about breeder issues. I was set on buying Koda, and felt the same way as the OP did about being able to provide a loving home & whatnot. At the end of the day, I made a decision that made the most sense for me in my situation personally. I feel this battle between BYB's & reputable breeders will be a timeless one simply because of convenience and cost. I would have LOVED to have a dog of guaranteed (no guesswork implied or waiting till pup matures to do all the tests for clarification, etc.) top notch quality-but that price intended to weed out as many possible irresponsible owners did the same to me =/ It's a double-edged sword, honestly.

In closing:
-I feel the OP should go ahead and follow the advice given by visiting the breeder & making their judgment then
-Don't get caught up in the "it HAS to be this one"-I have realized that there will always be pups born, and no two dogs are the same but that doesn't mean you can't get strikingly close-there will always be red huskies bred. From better breeders too
-Any dog you get will be cared for and loved properly, but buying from a reputable breeder does provide better "insurance" for you as the owner on the dog's health, and options for any other possibilities in the future (breeding, showing, working, etc.)
-Patience on matters like this is crucial-adding another member to your family for the next 10-15 years is a huge step, and puppy fever can overshadow that fact =/ been there, trust me.

Koda wrote:

I know this comment isn't going to live up to my nickname, but please allow me a moment.

MyKeeonah wrote:

but.. The puppies are born and alive, they are going to be adopted to someone. I know I provide an excellent home and quality of life for any animal living in this house. So I know at least one dog from the litter would have a home that it deserves.

This comment is why BYBs will ALWAYS have a job. If you were getting a puppy for free, sure, MAYBE I could understand that. But you're not. You're taking your money and putting it into his hands. That's why EVERYONE goes to BYBs..."Well, they are alive. I can save one." If that is how you look at it, do the dogs a favor and go walk into a shelter and pick one out. Save one of THOSE lives. Don't make the mistake of equating this man's litter with rescue. How much you want to bet he still would have bred the litter if he couldn't have recouped the money he spent having it? You think he still would have believed that's the "dog's purpose" if he was going to have to spend about $1500+ just to let the dogs do what they are here to do naturally? I don't think so.

Tori hit the nail on the head. This is exactly how BYBs stay in business, because people keep validating their purpose. I know it's hard to say no to those cute puppy faces, but It's also really sad to see people get taken by irresponsible breeders claiming to do the 'right' things the 'right' way and send them home with a puppy that is ill or has horrible genetic disorders.

If it's reds you want I know a number of quality, health tested, and proven reds producing healthy quality litters.