This week I was contacted by a woman in need of a trainer for her husky.

Apparently, it is her Boyfriends dog, and they have merged homes. She has a 4 yr old and the husky is getting standoffish toward the woman and her child, and often chewing things up. She suggested he isn't getting enough excercise, and that when she told her boyfriend that, he told her he didn't think so, but they don't even walk the dog daily, and it is an only dog.

I'm doing a meet and greet on Saturday, the 22cnd, and will know much more by then. I figured it might be fun to keep a training log for him here, so people can weigh in, listen, or otherwise comment on techniques and such.

Just thought it'd be fun to see what happens when a village of husky parents all raise one dog.

How fun, what a good idea that is both fun and educational. Looking forward to reading along...

i will deffinently watch this topic sounds like fun

I had my first meet and greet with Dexter and the family today.



Since they first contacted me, they have started going on hour long walks with him every day, and said he has calmed down considerably. The woman who contacted me has at least some basic dog skills, and has two fairly well behaved smaller dogs, who are social but reluctant to play with the husky.. The boyfriend, and owner was a first time dog owner when he got Dexter, and left him unaltered, intending to breed him, but not really knowing how much that entails. We made plans to discuss in full how much work it takes to be a responsible breeder, before they even consider going for it, but that is beside the point. He has a bond with his dog, and his dog reluctantly listens to him for the most part. He is also obviously a little bit of a softy and has encouraged, or certaintly not discouraged, a lot of Dexters behavioral issues, thru lack of consiistent and continued training and excercise. The son is a 4 yr old, and obviously doesn't comprehend that he treats the dogs in a manner which must be very scary for them. The woman noted this problem, and that she had difficulty getting him to listen to her, and maybe a "professional dog person" might mean more to him. We tried, but alas, he was afraid of my moustache until the last 5 minutes.. We will work on that more when he is more familiar with seeing me.

As for Dexter, he's a beautiful, healthy dog, with a typical husky attitude, and the typical problems that huskies get when the owners let themselves be pushed around a little. He pulls on his walks, jumps up on people, excited urinates, marks constantly on walks, no off-leash recall, cries when he doesn't get his way immediatly, jumps onto counters for food, and onto people for his toys, and does nip, and softly bites and cries when he's corrected.

We started our session by walking past the dog, and ignoring him, so we could talk. They didn't want him to excited pee, and he wasn't going to tell us when to pay attention to him. I explained that acknowledging the dog immediatly only encourages his excitement, and in turn his losing his bladder. He got a chance to potty and shake it off while we discussed the issues they were having, their training goals and expectations, my method being very much reliant on a balance of positive and negative reinforcement, and the importance of using negative reinforcement correctly. There can be a very fine line between being an assertive leader, and being aggressive, especially when you need quick results, like the understanding that you don't put your mouth on a human, especially a little human.

Once we were finished, we brought Dexter in. He immediatly came to smell me, and after I let him have a smell, I asked him to sit, which he did on the second try, and I gave him some love. I typically don't use treats in my first evaluation of a dog, because I want to see it in natural life, not its food motivated obedience to bison. They told me he was a puller for his walks. The woman was savvy to a front clip harness in theory, but not entirely in practice yet.

We decided to take a quick walk, maybe 20 minutes, as the entire family, with me handling the dog, so they could watch and ask questions about what we were doing. Dexter immediatly tried to be ahead and pulling, and immediatly got corrected, and told to sit, praised, and then we'd try again. After that proved not yet effective for him, we continued the walk, and he tried to be everywhere and mark on everything. We got in a groove of moving corrections pretty quickly, though. I find most marking alpha dogs figure things out pretty quickly when you pull them as they lift their leg a couple times. We ran into a couple strangers, and with owner and stranger consent, I taught and demonstrated to the owners the "sit to greet" training, where the dog is corrected for immediatly going up to the stranger, and the stranger waits until the dog sits to pet him, stopping the moment the dog breaks the command, allowing the trainer to correct the dog. It didn't take long for Dexter to understand what was expected of him, which was definitely a big positive.

When we got back to the house, I just observed the family in motion and talked to them about their other dogs, and the things for them to practice until our first real training appointment. The suggestions I made were for them to always have Dexter sit at doors and gates, and wait for the humans to enter first, continue practicing sit to greets with strangers who are comfortable helping out with it, continue the long walks, minding not to let him pull ahead, or stop to mark all over, and to continue ignoring him and letting him out to potty when they come in. Then the woman brought out a kong toy, and PB, intending to tell me the dog goes apeshit for it. Dexter jumped up for it, and my instinct kicked in. I caught the loop of his choke, yanked a correction, and shouted "OFF". He turned screaming like only a husky could, and gave me a fairly forceful warning bite, which has never, and will never in the history of my working with dogs been behavior I will accept in the slightest. He met the floor quickly but not painfully, and found himself belly up, next to me(I find it does very little beside terrify the dog beyond effectiveness to be on top during the alpha roll, in cases where you don't have a long standing history with the dog as its alpha) with my fist uncomfortably jammed in his mouth like a dentists bite guard before he had time to react a second time. When he calmed down, I let him up, made him sit, and praised him. It is a controversial method, but the owners and I both agree that controlled force has its place in training working dogs. I showed how to get a fist in the mouth the way I did. They asked me why I wouldn't just hold the mouth shut in my bite correction, and the simple answer is that I've found dogs are much less reluctant to bite when they find biting has a direct, immediate negative effect for them I.e. their mouth stuck uncomfortably wide open by way of wedging the thing they bite further in. Sure, it can get you bit, but in reality, I use it when the dog is already executing a bite so being bit is a bit of a null point. After that happened, Dexter was pretty submissive and obedient for me. I recommended the boyfriend/owner administer that correction, since they have a better bond, but we agreed that we will have to work dually on Dexter not needing corrections like that, and the woman being able to safely administer that kind of correction without worrying about being hurt by the dog ASAP. We decided our first training priority was leash manners/holding commands, and to spend equal times each session on behavioral issues that need negative reinforcement, and ones that need positive reinforcement so that no one day is biased toward either. We also agreed to start at one time a week, but once we get into training beyond basics, the schedule will be more rigorous.

I, of course, mentioned my intention to make a project on the forum about their dog, and we may be seeing them join soon, as they were thrilled by the idea of a community. We ended the session both feeling very confident that this would be a good fit, and that Dexter would train excellently.

Great corrections on the walks and greeting strangers. I find that method is fairly effective quickly and I'm glad to see Dexter took to it. I think this will be a great thread

Question though-- when you said that you "caught the look of his choke, yanked a correction..." can you describe this a bit more in detail? Did you grab the collar so that it wasn't acting as a choke, but a collar? Or did you grab the choke chain and yank so it pulled tighter?

It was used properly. His chain has bigger thann normal rings at the end, and it was pretty easy to hook with a finger, on the fly. I try my best never to pull the chain like a normal collar, I don't want to hurt a dog by putting weight on its neck, just correct it.

I would just be wary recommending that mouthing/biting correction to a family who doesn't have very good dog skills to begin with.

While I personally have used both negative reinforcement as well as positive reinforcement- how the dog was acting towards you after the bite incident strikes me as a fearfully obedient dog. No true learning takes place that quickly- just as something i've observed.

Really sounds like an under exercised Husky with no boundaries.

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Really sounds like an under exercised Husky with no boundaries.

Is the sense I get too just from the read. Nice thread BTW, enjoying it.


I would pick and chose what I decided to share with the family in this case. Alpha rolling, and the "Fist in mouth" correction have their place, and I'm not saying they were misused in this case, (I'm sorry when a 4 year old child is concerned mouthing or a full out bite needs to be stopped and I might have done the same) however just be sure they can handle your methods.


Alpha rolling has lead to "many a bites" when the wrong owner and dog partake in them. The roll triggers fear and fear triggers the bite.

In terms of the bite correction playing around a dogs mouth always increases the risk of actually getting a bite and the dog becoming another statistic.



All I'm saying is the owners obviously don't have much knowledge in the training and brining up of their pup in a respectful manner. Make sure they understand how EXACTLY to do any corrections you show them so the dog doesn't lash out at the closest person (Again the 4 year old).

Any tool used by an inexperienced and uneducated individual will only do more harm then good.

Maybe take some time away from the dog and just chat it out with the two owners and really get a feel on what they can handle and how they should approach the problem. If negative reinforcement is the way to go; then that's the way to go, just make sure they know how to do it right for their sake, the pup's sake, but most of all for the child.

~Chris~

I was a little wary of showing them that, but I did my best to really explain to them the pros and cons of using those methods, and examples of apppropriate and inappropriate use. There are a lot of owners that I never even show that to, because I'm sure they aren't ready to see it, let alone learn to use it. Ii definitely agree that it isn't a method for someone to jump straight into without experience.

I can't say I agree about fearful submission. He was initially taken aback, and a little cautious to give me my distance, but he didn't shy away long, and was happy to follow me ouut to the gate for an ill mannered goodbye hug. I certaintly wouldn't say he's learned anytthing. From my initial evaluation, but he showed promise.

In longer winded, politer sounding terms, that last line is exactly what I told them I thought the main "issue" was with Dexter. Luckily, the woman seems deadset on makiing their house function, and showed real willingness to go above and beyond to get there. Hopefully her enthusiasm stays high and her boyfriend starts wanting to be more involved aswell.

Chris,

I'm sorry, I didn't catch your post

That was my exact point of view. There is a 4 yr old child, who isn't even old enough to comprehend what he is doing, that has been nipped at already. It needs a quick resolve.

One of the first things out of my mouth, after rolling the dog was "Have either of you actually had to roll him like this before?" The male owner said he had, and that Dexter doesn't pull any b.s. with him during it, but the female said when she tried it, Dexter would act like he did toward me when I corrected him via chain, and that it made her a little nervous. I told them we would eventually get to that, but that we needed to work on establishing new roles for themselves and Dexter before someone Dexter sees as beneath him tries to do something that can be easily mistaken for aggression.

Fortunately, these owners don't seem stupid, just inexperienced with the breed. The little dogs are fairly sweet, well trained, social little bugs. They have their own problems, but as of now, they aren't my concern, or a concern to the training of the Husky.

o.0 I think they may have my dog!!! Gage, save for the marking due to being neutered (The FIRST order of business after we adopted him), has a lot of the same behaviors. We KNOW he was abused and starved, and suspect he was neglected as well. He doesn't even know what to do with toys!!!He protests VERY loudly at any correction, counter surfs like a pro, chases the cats, digs at the glass doors when he is outside, has picked a couple fights with Kaiser(Granted, Kaiser is not yet fixed) and will nip with some force when we try and pull him off something. In fact he gave my husband a couple light scratches when he tried to pull him away from the rat cage today. I look forward to getting a few ideas from this!!!

Keep us posted on your work with Dexter and good luck! It'll be interesting to see where this goes!

Hello, my name is Karissa, freshly appointed co-owner of Dexter.

My background: My mother was a breeder of Shelties. From the age of 3 on, I was raised helping whelp, raise, and train the puppies. My mother showed in AKC conformance.
I just bought my house in August, boyfriend moved in with his husky in mid-late October. I hadn't spent more than a night or so in a row with the dog before. Dog starts destroying my house, biting my kid, biting me (especially when trying to discipline for biting), biting at my dogs, taking food out of our hands, etc...
I got fed up and pissed off, especially as the agreement was he get his dog neutered and get obedience training. Suddenly there was a refusal to get the agreed upon training for the dog that was now destroying my hard earned home. As it became clear that he wasn't taking.proper care of his dog, I started researching the breed. Trying to tell him he wasn't exercising his dog enough was like throwing gasoline on a fire. I got burned. So I went through stages of "rehome the dog/make him take care of his dog/rehome the dog/training..." I finally realized he would never rehome his precious son...that he wasn't taking care of... I am an animal lover. I can't let that go on under my roof. If you can't beat em...join em.
So I determined I would PROVE that Dex could be a good dog when exercised properly. (I was told very adamantly that.there was NO amount of exercise that would change the.dog's behavior)
And then I found Eric. I immediately scheduled an appointment with him, hoping to have a pro tell my sweetie that THE DOG NEEDS MORE EXERCISE!!!

I have stepped up and taken charge of his training. He is making lots of progress during the week between training sessions. He follows me around the house and sits at my feet now.
I am continuously doing research on the breed, reading anything and everything I can get my hands on, and doing daily training sessions with all 3 dogs.

Great update, this is going to be an interesting topic to follow. Keep us updated.

That's awesome! Good for you for taking control! And as many of us has said before "A tired husky, is a good husky!" So keep at it! It's going to be great to see where this goes!

This is a really interesting thread. Please keep us updated. Ezio hasn't exhibited many bad behaviors, especially not lately, but I'm always educating myself in the spirit of just-in-case.

Today was my second visit with Dexter. I have been dealing with a family emergency for the past 24 hrs, and admittedly wasn't as focused as I normally would be.
Karissa has really stepped into the role of a responsible pet owner for Dexter, and is quickly incorporating her Dachsund and little fluffly mixed girl into her pack. She had not walked Dexter every day, and was hoping to see Aaron walk the dog. He hasn't been entirely innterested in the training, and they've had some differences in boundaries. It seems like they will be able to address most of those by deciding what manners they want their dog to learn (I.e. not letting him mark on walks, etc)
We started with a dog walk, for a good 30 minutes. Dexter still pulls, and stops to mark, but it is not anywhere near as bad as the first time. I was able to have a conversation while walking the dog, and next time I will probably be letting Karissa do all the walking. By the time we were circling home, Dexter was no longer pulling, and walking content off to the side on a loose enough lead.
Wiping his paws was also better, now that its a ritual thing.

Inside, we did some command training, since he already knows the basics. Karissa showed me how she had been dealing with his snatching with pushing him off, or nose bops, and then making him do a trick for a treat. She also showed me that they now made him lay in bed for human meal time. She obviously wants to be successful with the dog. We did lots of sits, lays, shakes and waits for treats, and I held out treats while looking at and talking with Karissa and Dexter sat beneath and needed a bop or two, but he didn't try to snatch until I told him okay.

The dog is obviously very smart, and only has a few obedience issues, an alpha complex, and a case of the boredoms. More than anything, we need to convince Aaron to be more involved. Karissa essentually has the heart of an apprentice trainer about it, and really cares about doing things right and effective. Aaron seems more like he's being dragged through it. Dexter is getting mixed signals from the people doing his training. We need to find a comfortable level of consistency they both can follow.

Dexter tried to attack me for correcting him over a pie he was sniffing. Behavior didn't fly, forearm in mouth, just for a second, and a pin to the ground happened. He continued to escalate it for a long time, while I just held him still until he was calm. The ordeal was almost 15 seconds from start to finish. There is definitely some food agression tucked in there. I've seen it with many a husky and malamute, but it isn't something that can fly. Luckily, Karissa being a forum member means she read all the cautions about negative reinforcement, and so I didn't have to explain that it was dangerous to do. Either way, we have to take care of it, and will be.

Karissa can share her experience of the night if she wants. I'm tired, mine probably isn't high quality.

What is it about the dog which you believe him to have "an alpha complex?"

I see a dog with no known boundaries up until just a week or so ago. Full disclosure I don't believe in the "dominant/alpha" business. Especially related to behavior with humans.

There are many scientific sources which discredit that thinking as well as many behavioral specialists who state dealing with aggressive/possessive behavior with force only suppress the behavior (which in my findings and observations leads to less frequent "outbursts" which are more intense) leaving the source of the behavior still lurking. I can understand the "want" to use force especially when you're dealing with a dog who doesn't hesitate to make contact... But for the dogs total understanding and extinction of the behavior... I feel it isn't the best method.

The dog is communicating to you that "No, that's mine." When instead they should be communicating "Can I have that?" You can't correct a dog into asking permission to the point where it is offered by the dog, but if you teach the dog to ask permission, and make if rewarding for the dog instead of uncomfortable and sometimes painful... I feel they get a better understanding.

And this isn't to say I don't feel dogs need corrections... Not at all. But dealing with aggression with force isn't something I believe to be effective in the long run.

This is an open forum so I'm just responding to a training method I don't have faith in. Not a personal attack

I really do believe in the alpha/dominant role, especially in working dogs. A dog that wasn't given boundaries, tries to lead the walks, marks everything, will snatch food from peoples hands, and believes that the stuff and people in the house are "theirs" sees itself as being the one in charge. It thinks it has to tell everybody what to do, and what's theirs, and where they're going on walks. It isn't enjoyable for a dog. Dogs are happier following orders than giving them out.

Honestly, I train different dogs differently. My Labrador has different instincts at this point than my Dingo, whom responds to things differently based on instinct than my Husky. Every dog needs some balance of positive reinforcement and correction. Each one responds more or less to a different balance of positive and negative reinforcement. The training dogs are the same. In a first hand 90 minutes of interaction with Dexter, he gets plenty of praise and treat training and positive work. Even when force or correction is used, its immediatly rebounded with a redirection and a treat.

There are multiple scientific studies about either side of the GMO crop issue, too. Not putting you down, just saying there's more than one way to do things.

Personally, though, I never allow any biting attacks from anyones dog. A person like me will shoot a strange dog if it tries to attack me oor my dogs on my walks, so when it comes to escalation and resistance, I really don't care if its thru fear of doggy hell, my dogs learn that biting is 100% ineffective, and only takes them down a path they don't want to know. They know to submit to a human hand, no matter what, and that's what I'm more comfortable with. Id way rather my dogs know a little fear, than boldly get themselves shot.

I'm with Eric. You can do all the studies you want, I go by first hand experiences. I don't remember any dominant/submissive behavior with my mother's shelties, but they were AKC champion show lines. Meaning to keep the lines pure they breed grandfathers to granddaughters. They couldn't even figure out how to mate with each other.

After a few weeks of establishing myself as alpha and devoloping my relationship with Dexter, he now approaches me with ears flat to the head, tail wagging, and a single tiny kiss. every time he looks at me now, his ears flatten back a little. He is no longer staring me down. He now follows me around the house instead of leading me (aka purposefully getting in the way).
We have a pack here. No doubt about it. Two adult humans, a child human, a 2.5 year old unaltered large husky, a small protective unaltered female dog, and a small unaltered male puppy. It might be different if they were all altered (the little dogs will be one of these days).
The dachshund pup walks/runs by the husky, the husky very carefully and very deliberately places the pup's entire head in his mouth after grumbling a correction. Pup drops and rolls onto his back, husky sniffs pup's genitals for a few seconds and walks off. Pup gets up and goes back to playing. That is textbook positive alpha and submissive behavior.
Letting your dog "push you around" is submissive. Dexter doing the pushing is alpha behavior. He KNOWS we don't like him to do something, but he feels entitled to anyway.

Dexter is very smart and we're making quick progress with him. I injured my main hand and am not supposed to text/type with it, so posting is hard right now. Will add more when I can.

To counter...

goaliechick41 wrote:

I'm with Eric. You can do all the studies you want, I go by first hand experiences. I don't remember any dominant/submissive behavior with my mother's shelties, but they were AKC champion show lines.

Herding breeds by nature are very biddable and by nature want to please and interact with their humans. Siberians are very independent and will take a mile when they can. It's a completely different ball game. Herding breeds have their own "genre" of issues.

Research based on science is based on experience and observation.

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After a few weeks of establishing myself as alpha and devoloping my relationship with Dexter, he now approaches me with ears flat to the head, tail wagging, and a single tiny kiss. every time he looks at me now, his ears flatten back a little.

After a few weeks of creating rules and boundaries and beginning a training relationship with a dog, things change. Personally I would prefer my dogs to come bounding towards me and slamming themselves in a sit as the word crossed my lips. I want a dog who wants to work and is eager to interact with me, not giving me calming signals that he means no harm. Ears back, lip licking, tail low and wagging are all "submissive" signs that he means no harm. When I look at my dogs I want them to perk up as if to say "what!?" What are we doing now?"

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The dachshund pup walks/runs by the husky, the husky very carefully and very deliberately places the pup's entire head in his mouth after grumbling a correction. Pup drops and rolls onto his back, husky sniffs pup's genitals for a few seconds and walks off. Pup gets up and goes back to playing. That is textbook positive alpha and submissive behavior.

That is textbook "accident waiting to happen" IMO.

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Letting your dog "push you around" is submissive. Dexter doing the pushing is alpha behavior. He KNOWS we don't like him to do something, but he feels entitled to anyway.

He does "dominant" behaviors because they've granted him some sort of positive response in the past. Any person who is weak willed and allows any dog to "do as they please" is going to wind up with a wild dog who, does what he pleases. That doesn't make him dominant. They're just doing what gives them positive feedback.

Keep in mind just because you want your dog to come bounding up to you, doesn't mean that's what everyone wants. Yes, a dog coming up calmly with its ears laying back is exhibiting submissive behavior. Id rather my dogs approach people in a friendly, submissive manner. A dog being submissive doesn't mean they are full of fear and anxiety. Sometimes it just means that they know you are master and commander in the house.

Karissa, keep in mind that these are just people with different experiences trying to share their advice for the overall well-being of your dog. What we do in our training sessions can be made private at your request, but even the things that we don't agree with are beneficial to read through.

Kristina, we obviously don't see everything the same, but I appreciate how even-tempered your responses have been. I look forward to debating method more with you. I wish my phone wasn't so hard to type with, as my replies aren't as thorough as Id like. Id be interested in talking shop in private sometime.

I agree with Kristina on this one. From what I've read here I don't think I would want you training my dogs (I don't mean that rudely, just that I personaly don't agree with your training methods), not that I'd want anyone training my dogs, but I think the measures used i.e pushing to ground, fist in mouth are far too agressive for the situation. I agree with Kristina also on that I don't want either of our dogs so frightened of us they cower or submit in that way - we want our dogs to respect us as owners and respect the training we've given; not be too afraid to put a paw wrong. It sounds like the original owner didn't do his research and the dog has boundary issues due to a lack of knowledge and exercise. Personally I'm a firm believerin positive reinforcement, I think they are just far too intelligent for their own good and negative corrections could have lasting results. You can have a well behaved dog, without them being submissive. Just my 2cents.

Dexter does not cower, nor has he ceased to bound up to me and jump all over me when I come home. When I say alpha, I mean I am in charge. I do not try to overpower him and make him cower in the corner. I merely mean I am in charge and he acknowledges that.

As for "fist in the mouth" it looks more like putting a finger or two in the back of his mouth to make a bite uncomfortable. If he tries to bite, trigger the gag reflex. He is in no way fearful or reluctant. The fact that I have a 4 year old child who has already been bitten and snapped at several times by this dog, and 2 smaller dogs, means that I enjoy the fact he is respecting me as his higher-up. It is my responsibility to keep everyone safe and in line. He is always very happy to see me. He comes and sleeps next to me now. I am providing the boundaries and positive attention and reinforcement and exercise he so desperately needed.
He is not frightened in any way, he is happy and learning to respect humans.

I am always very in tune with my animals, and if something doesn't seem quite right, I rectify it.

A lot of people wouldn't want me training their dogs. I don't take offense to it. It's why I explain my methods to people before hand.

What is nice is that just as many people do want me to train their dogs

It all depends on what kind of person the owner is, what kind of results they expect, what kind of dog they have, and how their dog behaves already.

You may think my reactions to biting are harsh, but I wouldn't want to find out what a 4 yr olds face looks like in reaction to a well-placed bite over a granola bar. It is the one thing I do not, will not, have not ever accepted from any dog that I have ever trained. Biting will 100% of the time result in some form of discomfort. They should never bite. Ever. I don't care if it is because they fear the reaction. Biting is intolerable. Ask a judge to reason with you because a strangers kid didn't ask to see your dog and frightened him a little, and got maimed in 1 quick snap.

I'm not all about the negative side of training. When a dog does something I like, I make sure to praise them for it. When a dog does something I don't like, I make sure to tell them, show them something else to do and praise them for doing the other thing. I just have worked enough crazy aggressive dogs, combat dogs, and packs of dogs to know that A. There defintely is a Dominant/submissive relationship between dogs, and between dogs and people. B. A submissive dog doesn't have to be a cowering, fearful dog, and can be perfectly well rounded. C. Force has a place in training.