Ok I need some advice/guidance/opinions for the last few hours Isis has not been wanting to be with the pups, shes gone out to the bathroom and wandered around the house and all but theyve been crying and when I try to get her back in there she refuses to go with them, is this an issue, or normal or what?

It's not really normal for a mother to refuse the pups. If she's refusing all together as in - won't lay with them to feed then you'll have to take over feeding duties and what not.

Basically she should be laying there cleaning and letting them eat. For a first time mom it is not completely unheard of to refuse the puppies though - they have never done it before. But again - she shouldn't abandon them. If you can't get her to do anything with them you'll have a long several weeks ahead of you.

My friends Corgi's first litter was similar to this at the start she bottle fed the puppies for a few days but also worked pretty diligently with making her lay down and spend time with the puppies - she eventually got the hang of what she was supposed to do.

well thats what im confused about, she was doing perfectly, laying there letting them nurse, but now all of a sudden shes jumping out of her box and not wanting to go back in period, i force her in and sit in there with her and try to get her to lay down, and she just jumps back out, its only been like two hours since she started this behavior, how often should she nurse them?

I'd say don't give her any option to leave. Sit there and make her lay down and attempt to feed a few times unless she's showing clear signs of really being distressed around the puppies. The only reason I say to push the issue is because mothers milk is obviously much more beneficial than being bottle fed. She might just be agitated/tired also - it's a lot for a new mother. I don't have much experience in this field but with my friends corgi she went off the pups right from the get-go.

If you have to start hand feeding - I believe it's every 2 hours (I don't remember the measurements off the top of my head) and you have to do weights for every puppy - at least once every day though I'm not sure if you do it more frequently per day. You have to really watch to make sure the puppies are all putting on weight. If she truly wants nothing to do with the puppies anymore you'll also have to take over for making them go potty.

Hi!

Halli was like this during both her litters of pups, she eventually would go back in and feed them. I think they just get sick of having the pups constantly hanging off them, she may not necesserily be refusing the pups, she just might want be wanting a break. If it gets to be a couple hours and she still is not going back to them, i would put the puppy box with the puppies upstairs in a room and shut the door with isis in the room with the pups. We did this with Halli every so often just to make sure she was feeding them.

For the first couple weeks we had the pups and Halli upstairs in our spare bedroom with their puppy box, so we could make sure we were able to get to them quickly if they sounded like they were in pain, the puppies would crawl over her and get behind her and then get stuck and Halli couldn't move them so until their eyes were open we had to make sure we could move them, but it also let us know if Halli was not with the pups, as she would come into our room to get escape, so we would have to take her back in. I do not know what other peoples experience with it is, but it was normal for Halli to leave the pups for a little bit of time to get a break, and we knew she wasn't refusing them because she was not showing any other signs of abandoning the pups, she was still a loving mother, but like every mum, she needed a little her time every now and again.

It is hard to tell whether she is refusing the pups completely or just wanting a break from them, it is perfectly normal if she is just wanting a break from them to stretch her legs and not have 8 mouths sucking on her nipples and fighting over them. Our first litter was 8 pups and the last one was 7 it is a lot for a mother to handle especially when it comes to feeding, they get worn out from it very quickly. We thought Halli had gone off the pups but as i said she was not showing any other signs of not wanting them.

Weigh the pups (if you aren't already) everyday and any that are quite under the weight of the others, just make sure they always have a nipple when feeding to get them back up to weight.
is she showing any other signs that she might be refusing her pups? if you pick one up and put it to her face does she sniff it and lick it/clean it? or not want anything to do with it?

I only ask so i can try and get a better idea of the situation.

Sorry this post is so long, but we went through a similar thing with Halli Bear.

@Sammie, not too long at all, I need the input of those who know so its appreciated

I tested that out right now though when you mentioned it, and she will lick the pup once then look away like shes got something to do, she is behaving very distracted like, Im going to take a video if she is still doing it in a few.

As a first time mum it probably seems quite daunting for her to go from it just being her and the other dogs to now being her and 8 little pups she has to look after, it is lot of learning.

Halli had lots of learning to do with her first litter, there were a few occaisons when she was standing up in the puppy box and not letting the pups feed, so we would make her lay down (usually meant doing it for her) and then just stick the pups on her nipple and sit in the room with her for a bit, then once the pups were full they would have a nap and we would let halli have a break while the pups slept. If she is licking them when you put it up to her face, she is at least acknowledging them, if she wanted nothing to do with the pups i imagine she would ignore it completely.

her mind is also probably in a million different places as well, sometimes letting her have a run around in the back yard to stretch her legs can be a good thing. i don't know where you have her placed at the moment with the pups, so its a bit harder to suggest too many things. It is unusual (not unheard of though) for a first time mum to refuse her pups completely and reject them, the motherly instinct is so strong when they first have pups, going off of what you described in your thread when she first had the pups, it would seem quite strange that she would suddenly just switch to not wanting anything to do with them.

If you get really concerned about her not feeding them pups then take her to the puppy box and get her to stand in it, and just lay her down and then let the pups feed off her, if you have to stay with her to make sure she doesn't move and to reassure her that it is all OK, then that's what you may have to do.
Are you weighing them each day?

There is the possibility considering her previous rough life that Isis doesn't have the ability to provide the nourishment. I don't know diddly about moms and pups but maybe she need a bit of a increase in her food so she can pass it on to her pups.

I don't know diddly either. Could it be like Len suggested some sort of medical issue that maybe causing her discomfort when they are nursing? Always good to consult a vet IMO.

Len, Brian, Yea, she is still doing the same thing, she will let them nurse if I force her to lay down and stand watch over her, but Ive got an appointment today with a new vet just to check things out

This is clearly opinion, but I know that if I ended up having 8 kids at once, I'd need a break. The information from Sammie-Leigh makes sense to me. Maybe let her get out and stretch while the pups are sleeping? The fact that she lost a few would make me think her maternal drive would be that much stronger as well...

Dogs aren't like people in that sense, Angela. They go through a grieving process (the grieving process is seen and more apparent after the pups are born - I don't know of any study where the process was seen in the mother when she loses them pre-birth) when they lose a baby(ies) but it isn't something that makes them go "wow, I lost some puppies better make sure I do everything I can to make sure these ones survive!" The rule of nature still applies which is "only the strong survive". A mother's focus for animals very much has to be on the ones that are still alive - but her previous life may not make her a capable good mother, also.

Oops - thanks for clarifying Niraya.

Guess you learn new things everyday! (Especially with huskies!)

You're welcome

Many (most,lots, all - to an extent?) people try to anthropomorphize their dogs/animals (some/many/most? without even meaning to)- which means they places their human emotions on their animals - essentially humanizing them.

For example - I was reading something today and someone said that their vet suggested neutering his dog. The gentleman's response was that he wanted his dog to have a puppy before being neutered. When asked why he wanted this his response was " but I still want a pup from my boy, and I feel as a man that if he has to give up his crown jewels that he should do it with a bang, low lighting , Barry White, chicken dinner he can't go wrong.!!!!!!" - to give you an idea of how one would anthropomorphize/humanize a dog. (dogs don't care if they have puppies before being spayed/neutered)

ok im in a problem here, I have this figured out, well, cant take all the credit, the vet I saw today helped lol. But the problem is that she doesnt have any milk, she has a few drops in her but thats it, and Ive told some of you on facebook that their good but very whiny, well it wasnt whiny, it was hunger, so Im going to see how much puppy milk is and some bottles, but how big do I need to get the nipples?

Get ones that you have to make the hole yourself and take a pin - heat it up so it's sterile and make the hole. Anything bigger you could end up drowning the puppies, basically.

do you know of any temporary home made formula thats ok for them till I can get some puppy formula?

MetalMama wrote:

do you know of any temporary home made formula thats ok for them till I can get some puppy formula?

Found this recipe for homemade puppy formula at http://www.chelsea-collies.com/newborn.html

a 13 oz. can of evaporated milk
equal amount of water
4 oz. of plain yogurt
4 egg yolks
1 tablespoon of liquid vitamins*

They don't need anything too big, try and get something similar to the the mum's nipples, and as Ceara said, you are best making the hole yourself.

Well i am glad you found a solution to the problem, it is not an ideal solution, but a solution none the less, and it's certainly better then nothing. Did the vet have any suggestions as to why she isn't producing milk?

The most I've heard/read is use goat or sheeps milk since the composition is similar to a dogs. I'll look up more research when I get back.

I did a google search on feeding newborn puppies.

http://www.2ndchance.info/orphanpuppy.htm

maybe this information will help you..

My partners dad used to breed dogs, and he had a few cases where the mum rejected the pups or she was not producing any milk, and i think he made his own formula every now and again, so he might have a recipe or two lying around, i will see if i can get it off of him.

Here is website i found which looks like it could be pretty helpful with bottle feeding pup http://leerburg.com/bottlefeeding.htm?set=1
http://www.petmedsonline.org/homemade-puppy-treats.html

Aw poor Isis. She probably isn't producing milk because she was malnourished before you rescued her. Lactation requires a huge amount of calories.

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/bottlefeeding2.htm

I decided I like that list (and it is a long list of different types of recipes) better than the other. It has a Temp. Milk Substitute recipe a weak puppy booster and a diet that can fully support life or be supplemental - among many other recipes.

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/bottlefeeding.htm

Even though it's for Löwchen's - it has some good information.

paleobones wrote:

Aw poor Isis. She probably isn't producing milk because she was malnourished before you rescued her. Lactation requires a huge amount of calories.

Exactly what I was thinking.