-joins Amora-

I was just going to scream, TROLL!!!!!!!!!

Quote :

If I love my dog half as much as I say I do, who am I to take the same rights away from her? Is it really human to fix her once and forever and deprive her of her God-given nature?

I will only comment on this...God-given nature? REALLY?? So you believe that huskies were put on this Earth to make babies? Were humans put on this Earth to make babies? Think about it, there are plenty of people I know who SHOULD NOT reproduce!! The same goes for dogs. Is it human to spay her? OF COURSE IT IS!!! Do YOU know what happens to a bitch who has puppies? How much more aggressive she can get after that? Do you know about the complications that can happen from NOT getting a bitch spayed before her first heat? I do, I had a friend who had to fork over $500 to get her cat treated for mastitis and that was just for a small CAT! Imagine how much it would cost to treat that in your husky. O by the, if you fix her before her first heat, her chance of getting that goes down significantly. You are entitled to your opinion but we're also entitled to disagree with you. My dog has papers and I got her spayed, she is NOT breeding quality and that's fine with me. You can love your puppy all you want, but you can't justify breeding a dog that has not had hip and eyes checked. The whole point of breeding is to better the breed, breeders are trying to breed out issues like hip dysplasia and the eye problems, not make sure every dog HAS it. By breeding your dog, you could be hurting the breed NOT helping it!!

Don't feed it, please.

You have your opinion and I have mine which you cannot change. I did not come to create drama but truly to voice what I think on the topic. Feed the troll or not he's not scared. I don't think huskies came to Earth to produce babies - the fact is, that's why all the species are here.

It is true though that there are so many huskies ending up in shelters esp in Alaska. But I so don't think the breeder is to blame for that. Now I really am thinking about breeding. You know what I would do? I'd tell everyone if they can't take care of the dogs they bouhgt from me, bring it back to me.

Dear lord. You really need to educate yourself. That's all I will say.

Thnx Sheba.

Sorry.. I got into the second page of the poop-fest and now no-longer have any patience not to ask a few things, so forgive me if the answer is somewhere in the second half of page 2 or on page 3.

Firstly, I am in New Zealand so potentially things are a bit different here.


1. What is a GOOD reason to breed- most of you have pointed out that Jennifer doesnt have a good reason to breed - but none of you have actually indicated what a GOOD reason may be? I personally can not think of one at all even for a TRUELY reputable breeder. Not when - as alot of you keep saying - hundreds (in NZ atleast) of Huskies are in shelters. How many REPUTABLE breeders have shut up 'Shop' because of this reason?

None that I have heard of.

2. Is it therefore okay for a REPUTABLE breeder to breed loads of litters a year just to find that one Champion show dog, and to pawn the rest off to people as pets etc, for there own selfish need to feel empowered by having the BEST show dog?
Can anyone here legitimately say their show dog gave their own consent to be shown?

(you don't see the local strays prancing around handing out ribbons to the best looking dog now do you?)

In all honesty if the bitches had their way they wouldn't give 2 hoots what breed of dog mated with them, as long as they had the right to chose for themselves.


In all reality the only reason we have 'pure bred' animals is because a select bunch of humans decided to interfere with nature.

In my personal experience, (which is limited to New Zealand ) Our backyard breeders often do better jobs of producing animals to the 'Breed Standards' then the KC breeders. Maybe it is because there is a limited genetic pool to choose from in the way of KC registered breeding stock - but therefore the majority of 'REPUTABLE' breeders in New Zealand just interbreed to hell with the consequences - all to make a dime - because they don't want to shall out the money to import stock.

Anyway my point is, nothing would happen in this world if people didn't have free-will and freedom to choose.

The first couple of people got the point across- didn't need to all have a go.

I personally think if Jennifer wants to do something for the breed - she should open a no kill shelter for them. That's what I would do.

histi wrote:

1. What is a GOOD reason to breed- most of you have pointed out that Jennifer doesnt have a good reason to breed - but none of you have actually indicated what a GOOD reason may be?

2. Is it therefore okay for a REPUTABLE breeder to breed loads of litters a year just to find that one Champion show dog, and to pawn the rest off to people as pets etc, for there own selfish need to feel empowered by having the BEST show dog?

#1 IMO, a good reason would be to want to IMPROVE the breed - less health faults, a dog that is structurally sound and free of health defects and kept to the standard of the breed that they were bred for to begin with - compact working dogs.

#2 What reputable breeder breeds 'loads' of litters? Most have 1-2 a year, and waiting lists for their pups beforehand. BYBs are the ones pumping out puppies regardless of health testing, if the bitch had been bred the season before, or what the last litter produced.

A reputable - I'm talking reputable, not just a show kennel - does not create a dog just to have the BEST SHOW DOG. A reputable breeder has litters to create the best representation of the breed. This means, a solid front, nice angles, a nice rear (especially when moving), ears that are small, well furred and placed at the top of the head, small and oval shaped eyes to keep the snow out, a well defined stop, a fluffy coat, but not wooly (there are variations), and many, many other things.

If a person can't put their hands on a dog and describe the faults of the dog, they have no business breeding. I know very, very few people who can actually do that.

Mobezilla wrote:

histi wrote:

1. What is a GOOD reason to breed- most of you have pointed out that Jennifer doesnt have a good reason to breed - but none of you have actually indicated what a GOOD reason may be?

2. Is it therefore okay for a REPUTABLE breeder to breed loads of litters a year just to find that one Champion show dog, and to pawn the rest off to people as pets etc, for there own selfish need to feel empowered by having the BEST show dog?

#1 IMO, a good reason would be to want to IMPROVE the breed - less health faults, a dog that is structurally sound and free of health defects and kept to the standard of the breed that they were bred for to begin with - compact working dogs.

#2 What reputable breeder breeds 'loads' of litters? Most have 1-2 a year, and waiting lists for their pups beforehand. BYBs are the ones pumping out puppies regardless of health testing, if the bitch had been bred the season before, or what the last litter produced.

In New Zealand, a 'REPUTABLE' breeder is considered to be an NZKC registered breeder.
Buying from anyone other then the above is considered a backyard breeder.
Do you guy's not necessarily consider a breeder reputable if they are Kennel Club registered?

As I said, I am sharing information as I know it to be from the country where I reside..

This may not be the case where you are from, and thank you for your explanations as it shows the differences (in an ethical sense) between countries and what is/isn't considered acceptable between them

Well I had this big bad long post that I was working on for almost an hour, I thought of even submitting it as an English paper, but then I accidentally hit the "go back one page" button. All that effort wasted. D:

Although at this point I don't need to beat a dead horse, Megan 1 and 2 (I hope you don't mind if I call you guys that) gave you some good answers. Being an AKC registered breeder here doesn't mean anything. There are "reputable" breeders everywhere, but the odds of them being truly reputable is about the same as one of use winning the lottery tomorrow. Okay maybe that's a slight exaggeration... Maybe...

Also always, always, always save your long posts to word or something. It's imperative to your survival.

mbarnard0429 wrote:

A reputable - I'm talking reputable, not just a show kennel - does not create a dog just to have the BEST SHOW DOG. A reputable breeder has litters to create the best representation of the breed. This means, a solid front, nice angles, a nice rear (especially when moving), ears that are small, well furred and placed at the top of the head, small and oval shaped eyes to keep the snow out, a well defined stop, a fluffy coat, but not wooly (there are variations), and many, many other things.

If a person can't put their hands on a dog and describe the faults of the dog, they have no business breeding. I know very, very few people who can actually do that.

Thank you also for your explanation.

In New Zealand this is the standard for siberian Huskies in Height:

Height: Dogs: 53 - 60 cm (21 - 23.5 in) at the withers Bitches: 51 - 56 cm (20 - 22 in) at the withers.

Keyto, who I adopted from an NZKC breeder, is 50cm at the withers at best.
Keyto is a retired breeder. Therefore, because she is under height, she should have not been bred from? Would she be bred From by a reputable breeder in your country?

She has 3 champions in her pedigree...

Just trying to wrap my head around the differences between countries.

Please keep in mind I am not the one saying it is ok for just anyone to breed,

My personal opinion is that very few people should be, and that time would be better served giving loving homes to Huskies that don't have one.

My reference to some backyard breeders doing better than KC registered ones is specific to my country, have seen backyard breeders of dobermanns produce perfect speciman's, where as a kennel club registered breeder managed to botch their litter entirely having their bitch sired by a champion, only 6 pup's produced and 3 died at birth due to congenital heart defects, the other 3 survived but all have heart defects also. In some instances in New Zealand the Kennel Club can and do get it all wrong.

Carissa, imo no, a reputable breeder would not have bred a dog that's out of standard, because they would possibly be perpetuating out of standard dogs. In my country, being registered/licensed with the AKC merely means they are subject to inspection to insure the dogs are kept in a clean environment and keeping accurate records. Our kennel club does not dictate which dogs may be bred. Being a reputable breeder goes far, far beyond that. And a reputable breeder would not breed a dog where only three in the pedigree have been proven in the show ring (or racing, etc). That's like 1/3 of the dogs in a three generation pedigree (much less in a four generation). If they aren't in the first one or two generations, it doesn't mean much. Finally, a reputable breeder will always take a dog back that they have bred. They feel responsible for all pups they produce, so they are not the ones contributing to the population of dogs that wind up in shelters.

In terms of breeding a dog that is 1 cm out of standard, I would say it depends on the rest of the dog, the breeding program, and the breeder. It is possible that there may have been some other attributes that the breeder saw as valuable (for the breeding program, not talking $ here) that he/she wanted to contribute to the lines. Generally, I'd say breeding a dog out of standard is not reputable, but when we're talking a negligible amount of height at the withers, to me that's in the grey area.

I also don't necessarily think that every single dog that is bred has to be a champion in the show ring. I think there are so many factors outside of the actual conformation of the dog that contribute to winning, that, at times, the dog that is most correct in conformation won't win. Including fads, trends, and types. However, I say that within the context of a reputable breeding program. I do think that there should at least be an attempt to exhibit or work dogs for anyone breeding, and that there should be dogs within that breeding program that have proven themselves in at the very least the previous generation.

In terms of your question about show dogs giving "their own consent to be shown?" I think that is kind of a silly question. Can you say your dog gave consent to walk on a leash? Or learn to sit? Or ride in the car? Can someone who does obedience say the dog gave consent to learn and compete? What about working/hunting dogs? Did your dog give consent to be taught not to mess in the house? I really don't see any difference between showing and any other dog sport/hobby or even basic training. Show dogs, pets, working, and sporting dogs do what they do because they are partners to humans. Of course there are always people who take it to the extreme in a negative way, but for the most part showing is a fun activity for dogs and humans alike.

The AKC is just a registration system. It's a database, and a piece of paper stating that a dog is a certain breed. They do not have any participation or requirement that the dogs actually meet the standards or any requirements of humane breeding practices. Generally here in the states, each breed has a breed club, so we have the SHCA (Siberian Husky Club of America). There is a system and intensive requirements for a breeder to become affiliated with SHCA, so generally if you are looking for a breeder, that is a good place to start. As with everything, occasionally a few bad apples get through, but for the most part the SHCA does a good job of screening breeders.

In my opinion there is really one main cause of homeless huskies and that is irresponsible owners impulsively buying huskies. BYBs and puppy mills exist because there is a market for it. There is a market for it because reputable breeders refuse to sell puppies to ill equipped owners, or bad situations for puppies. So up pops the BYB that will sell to anyone with $$$. They don't care about breeding to standard, or the health of the dogs, they care about making money.

Finally, for what its worth, many, many breeders here in the states also rescue.

mbarnard0429 wrote:

A reputable - I'm talking reputable, not just a show kennel - does not create a dog just to have the BEST SHOW DOG. A reputable breeder has litters to create the best representation of the breed. This means, a solid front, nice angles, a nice rear (especially when moving), ears that are small, well furred and placed at the top of the head, small and oval shaped eyes to keep the snow out, a well defined stop, a fluffy coat, but not wooly (there are variations), and many, many other things.

If a person can't put their hands on a dog and describe the faults of the dog, they have no business breeding. I know very, very few people who can actually do that.

Megan B.  Excellent!  Poor quality dogs could be eliminated by following that advice.

Carissa, I liked your point about the intentionality of pure bred dogs and stating that left to their own dogs themselves would eliminate all breeds in no time. That is true and I find that itself a very interesting topic to explore and hash out.

But if anything that itself only further strengthens the implementation of standards and some sort of code of ethics with breeding programs.

Here are my thoughts, not directed at you but generally.

Breeds have design and purpose and history, especially working and sporting breeds. They aren't meant to be commodities sold for their looks.

So long as we find it valuable to have pure bred dogs around we need standards and ethics, and perhaps even ones that transcend culture or geography. As is mentioned in several active threads right now, we can take great strides in improving the health of dogs overall, lessen the amount of dogs in pounds and rescues, and improve the quality of life of pure bred dogs by strengthening the necessity of standards for breeding and the placement of puppies into responsible, carefully selected homes.

Sadly for many Huskies, they are just too freakin' cute and overall too beautiful to make these implementations as well as we need to. Irresponsible "breeders" make puppies because they sell and their only standard is at the time of purchase having the money to take a puppy home. The pureness, if you will, of the breed is neglected and for the most part, beyond aesthetics, irrelevant.

That's really unfortunate.

Thanks guys.. this topic is really interesting.

I used the example of a bitch not caring who she mates with more as an illustration to the point that we as humans take away their freewill. Its not necessarily a bad thing, dogs seem to enjoy being owned and enjoy the pack like structure.

Just saying that everything comes down to choice, and some people will have different view points. My initial arguement was based on the fact that many joined the poop fest just to say what had already been covered. That to me, just isnt necessary.

In all honesty what has been said here has probably made her want to breed out of spite to what has been said. If the general idea here is that BYB arent welcome and I am thinking my pup (which is backyard bred) isnt either then maybe this should be specified in the club rules

histi wrote:

In all honesty what has been said here has probably made her want to breed out of spite to what has been said. If the general idea here is that BYB arent welcome and I am thinking my pup (which is backyard bred) isnt either then maybe this should be specified in the club rules

I think you may be misunderstanding.. the group as a whole is very passionate about the breed. Many of us have gotten pups from bybs without knowing better (myself included). One of my dogs came from a pet store, one came from a byb. Are my dogs any less loved? No. But I know I lined those peoples pockets, and never would I do it again. I certainly don't regret it, but having the information I have now, I could make more informed choices. Someone who comes here, given knowledge and information, and yet STILL chooses to be what IS a backyard breeder, and straight up telling us her intentions, certainly is not going to get a seal of approval. At least not from me, I'm not going to sit back and say 'hey, thats a great idea! I wish everyone would be a backyard breeder!'. Ultimately, people are going to do what they want to do and we can't change their minds, but we can do the best we can do to educate them and try to make them realize what they need to do to truly better the breed,

Everyone is welcome! I'm sorry if you felt like I was saying that you weren't! My first pup was from a BYB. That being said, this is a very sensitive subject for many and I got the idea from your initial post that you were totally against breeding all together. There are members here with huskies, husky mixes, and even some non-huskies! Adopted dogs, show dogs, pets from show breeders, dogs from sled kennels, dogs from BYBs and I'm sure many others I can't think of. I don't think anyone said anything bad about anyone's dog or anyone as a person. A question was asked and everyone that replied did their best to answer and share their opinions. You and Keyto and Digger are of course welcome, and I hope you stick around and become part of the community.

Nah was just blown away by all this stigma - maybe I don't quite grasp the point, as we dont really have too much of a puppy mill problem to my knowledge.

Most people in NZ are pretty responsible anyway - we have the highest ratio of pets to person in the world, pretty much just an animal loving country.
We have a bigger problem with unwanted cats here in my opinion.


The 'byb' digger came from has one stud (with papers ) and 2 bitches, and each girl never breeds more then once a year, and diggers mum is now retiring after her 4th litter.  

The guy breeds out of personal necessity.  It can be very hard to make ends meet in NZ. But he admits that. Atleast he doesnt abuse them and overbreed them.

And Digger will deffinately meet the standard for height atleast.

Will be interesting to compare keyto and digger as he grows, keyto being an NZKC registered x breeder, and him being a dirty backyarder.

Also, in NZ a 'byb' pup will cost between 800 to 1100 NZD
But a nzkc registered husky will cost between 1200 to 1600 depending on how great the breeder thinks they are. To gauge, the average family with one working parent has a take home income of 500-600 dollars per week.

I hope you stick around too. You've already contributed by asking questions and being willing to discuss things pertinent to you and your life with your dog. You're many steps ahead already.

Nobody learns or understands anything without these discussions. They're worth having for that alone. It's just important to not take anything personally and keep things on a level related to the topic itself. One of the inevitible parts of these conversations about breeding is that lines get drawn in the sand, and it can get divisive, which is unfortunate. The point though is not to feel bad about the past but to improve or grow in the future. Even if all we gain is further conviction about our thoughts and we don't change one bit, then the conversation was worth it.

Mass agreement is boring and counterproductive.

The thing about the forum, the best part, is being able to have heated discussions with passionate disagreement and then one thread down in the cue the same person who you disagreed with is all "omg you're puppy is so cute!" or giving you constructive advice about sizing your next harness.

You'll see this healthy rhythm to it in no time.