So, Ava was being her usual nutty self during class today and my trainer offered to walk her around a bit to work on her behavior. At this point, my Mom is still helping out with her classes a lot because I'm not back to being physically able to handle her yet and Ava hardly ever listens to her, so I think the trainer was mainly wanting to check and see if it was just Mom's handling "skills" that let her act up so much. After a few minutes of working with Ava, she suggested that I try a choke chain type collar or a prong collar (apparently she really is that bad ) and put her on a choke chain. After a few seconds of Ava's "WTF is this?!" look, she settled down and was like a completely different dog. She was very well behaved, ignored the other dogs she walked around - and Ava is a very playful/excitable reactive dog, so I don't say that lightly - and looked really proud when she was walking. I took over and she continued acting great for me too, so I'm really looking into this new collar thing.

Which of the two collars is best, generally? I want her to behave on a leash and be manageable, but I also don't want to put a bunch of stress on her trachea or do anything that could cause her to injure herself. If anyone's used them, what are the pros/cons that you can think of? I'm hoping that this will be something where she won't have to use it for years and years and that she'll learn to walk well on a flat collar, but I really don't know. Any input would be great.

I have absolutely the same story with my first husky! With the exception of two barfing episodes in the floor of the training area . She was such a puller and SO excitable!

I have written LONG responses to this topic before, so I will be brief. You can probably search for other threads titled, "Prong" or "Pinch collar". I will not use a regular sliding choke collar that is capable of getting infinitely small when the dog pulls. I use the prong collar because: 1) It gets their attention, 2) It will never get small enough to "choke" the dog, 3) If used correctly, it will not damage the trachea. I will probably one day try a martingale collar after Sabaka acts a little better with his prong collar. I now know when to use the prong collar (i.e. in a crowd of people at my kid's soccer game or walking on the busy trail where we pass many dogs and bikes) and when I can get by with using a harness. I really do not use the flat collar ever for long walks. I will lead him to his "poop spot" in the yard using the flat collar, but feel that it is my least favorite of all of the above-mentioned leads. 1) It can cause trachea damage and 2) they can wiggle out of this collar if it's a little loose.

I walk Sabaka using a prong collar but my hubby has started using the harness for his walks. We hike with the harness.

Look for the other thread(s) on this...

Good luck!!!

I was leaning towards the prong as well, but I always like to double check myself. I also just read the other topic about Rex being a horror on a leash and that was exactly everything that Ava does. I'm grateful that she isn't reactive in an aggressive way, but I just wish she'd behave well enough on her martingale/harness so I wouldn't have to resort to a prong. It doesn't make sense because I know that the prong isn't the torture device that it looks like, but it still makes me feel bad for some reason.

a certain kind of collar may help in the process, but just having a prong collar will not make any dog walk perfectly. It is as much a training tool as anything else. The technique and consistency in training is what will ultimately dictate a dog's behavior on the leash. I have only ever used regular flat collars while walking keeonah in town, and i use her harness on hikes. She doesn't pull with either anymore.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/nopulling.html

i will continue to advocate this technique, because it worked magic for keeonah and myself. of course she get's excited when she sees other dogs or bikes, but the counter to that is to go the other direction, and make yourself and the direction you are going more interesting than the distraction, and as soon as she shifts her focus back to you, BIG praise and treats . Consistency is the key.

good luck!

I agree with use the prong collar. Biko would choke himself when on a regular flat collar and feel the sliding chokers would have the same or worse results. Both Adobo & Biko walk fine on the prong type with the occasional pull for cats and squirrels.

Thanks for the link Sean, but honestly, I've used all of those techniques before and it doesn't phase her. Even using them all consistently doesn't make a dent in her stubborn little head. I definitely don't plan to slap a prong collar on her and have her act perfect, but I'm hoping that she'll do better with training on it and eventually we'll be able to get her back to a martingale/harness.

Myndi wrote:

Thanks for the link Sean, but honestly, I've used all of those techniques before and it doesn't phase her. Even using them all consistently doesn't make a dent in her stubborn little head. I definitely don't plan to slap a prong collar on her and have her act perfect, but I'm hoping that she'll do better with training on it and eventually we'll be able to get her back to a martingale/harness.

It's funny, but when we "slapped a prong collar" on our first girl (Who was definitely on the road to failing training class - vomiting on the floor and visiting ALL the "friends" in the room tends to lead to failure, you know!) she really did "act perfect"! The trainer instructed us how to use it after class one evening. Sandy's thick neck fur hid the new collar. So when we returned the next week all of the other class members, who were had previously thought there was no hope for this crazy dog, were picking their jaws up off of the floor! She ended up receiving the most improved student! I personally think she enjoyed class better after that. She did still occasionally break the "stay" to visit with a Great Pyrenees or Poodle across the room when off-leash. But we ended up doing really well in that class!

Sabaka has never been as bad as Sandy was (if memory serves me correctly). I think what training aid you use really can depend on the dog. I would suggest that if your trainer is willing to take a few extra minutes to show you how to place the prong collar and the proper way to lead with it on, then you should give it a try.

I should add: I think all huskies are a little bit ADD / ADHD. The reason the prong collar works, in my opinion, is that it gets and keeps their attention. Your goal with all training methods is to get and keep their attention as you train them to walk with you. Some huskies just have a harder time focusing than others.

I agree with Sean that it is better to train the dog not to pull in the first place. It does take consistency though and it can be very frustrating having to keep stopping like that. The technique that Sean recommended is the place to start, but some dogs find this harder to learn than others. In this case you might need to sometimes turn around and walk the other way, rather than just stopping and waiting for a slack leash.

Other things that would help are:
- teaching the dog to heel (starting in your house where there are no distractions, before you try it in the garden, and then outside on the street),
- teaching the dog to sit still and wait while someone comes up to them, so they are learning not to pull to people (borrow a friend to walk towards you while you have the dog in sit; if the dog gets up, the friend stops walking and/or goes back to their starting point. they only get to the dog while the dog is still sitting)
- if the dog is leash reactive to other dogs, then you have to work on that as a separate issue because, however well it knows to walk on a loose leash, it is going to get distracted and lunge towards other dogs.

A martingale is less aversive than a prong collar and might work just as well.

Maybe I will slap it on and she'll be perfect then I can only hope!

Even with consistency and everything that Ghost is pointing out, Ava doesn't walk well. I've tried, believe me. We use a martingale now and it does nothing for pulling at all. I've tried all of the different tips out there and haven't had any luck.

Believe me I know the dog you are talking about! When I would stop or turn and begin moving the other way, my dog would continue to pull and lunge to go her way until... well, I don't know how long she would have done it...maybe forever!

That's when she would barf... once she even lost consciousness for a while probably due to lack of oxygen! She was nuts!!

Do you use treats or rewards to get her attention?

SabakaMom wrote:

Do you use treats or rewards to get her attention?

good question. the no-pulling technique is good, but i always have keeonah's doggie trail mix with me (assorted treats/75% kibble), so that she realizes how nice the perks of listening are

Ava's never made herself sick or passed out, but if I stop and "be a tree," she'll look around and keep pulling in all directions. If I turn around and walk the other way, she's okay with that and just starts to pull again. Tell her to sit/wait when she's excited, I get very irritated sounding woo's while she just looks at me. Sometimes she'll sit too, but as soon as her butt touches the ground she pops back up again. If we see another dog that she wants to play with (and she's about a billion times worse with other huskies, but the only ones near me are chained up outside all the time), she'll throw a tantrum when she doesn't get to greet them. That varies between pulling and whining to throwing herself to the ground and rolling around screaming - like a toddler - it just depends on the other dog. I use her favorite toys and treats to help, but most of the time she just doesn't care. She's more dog-oriented than play/food-oriented, so its difficult there too.

It does take persistence to train them, especially with an excited dog. Our herding dog used to be exactly how you describe; if I stopped and waited he would just think he was pulling in the wrong direction and pull in a different direction instead. He would get over-excited when he sees other dogs, desperate to meet them. I would sometimes run past them just to make it easier for him, and learnt that running is a good reward for him for going past another dog without paying attention to it. Like Sean, I also use treats to lure him into behaving the right way. It has taken time but it does work, and it's rewarding to see it pay off.

It's common for dogs to be excited by the sight of other dogs. The more she is well-socialized with other dogs, the easier it will be for her to stay calm around them. When training her to heel, try and do so without other distractions around at first. Also, use other things that you do with her to teach her to be calm (e.g. if you have a good stay, that helps with impulse control). You can train her to keep her bottom on the ground longer by using treats; gradually increase the amount of time she has to stay in the sit before she gets the treat. If she jumps up too soon, she doesn't get the treat and has to sit down again to get it.

My worry with a prong collar would be that if she pulls to another dog so hard that it causes pain, she could end up associating other dogs with pain and become fearful or aggressive. Also, if you are using a prong collar then you shouldn't use the turn-around-when-she-pulls method, because it could hurt her if you turn suddenly.

Well, the prong came a few days ago and we've worked with it some. So far, Ava's been great and I'm amazed. I haven't had her around other dogs yet though, so I'm not sure how that will work out at class tomorrow. I've been using it on the dead ring too, so that's even better.

I have a little bit of trouble keeping it right at the top of her neck - it usually slides down an inch or so, but I can't take any more links out without it being too small. I actually tried it on myself too and I don't think its as torturous as I was expecting, which is good.

Wish us luck tomorrow!

We had the same problem, Myndi. I loooove my prong. Kya is 2 niw ad i still use it if she isnt in a harness. She rarely needs it pulled, but she has serious adhd lol. Its a great tool, and i prefer it faaaaar over the sliding choke chain.

Good luck tomorrow. I want updates on crazy Ava! Lol.

Ghost wrote:

My worry with a prong collar would be that if she pulls to another dog so hard that it causes pain, she could end up associating other dogs with pain and become fearful or aggressive. Also, if you are using a prong collar then you shouldn't use the turn-around-when-she-pulls method, because it could hurt her if you turn suddenly.

If the prong is causing pain its being used wrong. The prong is made to NOT cause pain, only provide the nip of "parent" dog that is used in nature. I have not heard or read of it causing real pain, but even if it did, it would be from improper use, which i don'tthink myndi would do.

Though they always say to use the prong up on the neck I do just the opposite because it never stays there any how. I pull the regular collar up and then the prong settles in nicely below it, it'll still do what you want it to do. The pain part is the dogs own doing they'll learn what they want to put up with all part of the process. Just don't ever yank the leash when they tick you off then the pain is induced by you not the dog. If you start feeling frustrated and want to yank the lead you just stop walking until they cool heir jets a bit and then continue on the way.

Tiff&Kya wrote:

If the prong is causing pain its being used wrong. The prong is made to NOT cause pain, only provide the nip of "parent" dog that is used in nature. I have not heard or read of it causing real pain, but even if it did, it would be from improper use, which i don'tthink myndi would do.

I wasn't suggesting that Myndi would do it wrong, just that she asked for the pros and cons and to me those are possible cons. I know everyone on here loves their dogs - after all, that's why we're here. The simple fact that she asked so as to make an informed decision shows how much she cares about her dog

I have seen too many huskies still able to pull like crazy with a prong. For me I just don't see what are good in them. I am a fan on the head halters. To be honest, if Maggie just had her harness or collar she pulls. Maggie stops pulling immediately after I put the halter on. I have trained her where she knows if I have a harness on it I get to pull.


Though I'm trying to get her CGC so I'm feeding them out. I found if she is tired, I can walk her without pulling.

Heads up on the CGC testing, head halters are not allowed on test day.

yes I know. that is why I said I am feeding them out

Today was crazy. Ava behaved really well for almost the whole class, minus a few minutes where it seemed like she was trying to "test" me. I just about had to scoop my jaw up off the floor. I was even able to handle her for the entire class on my own (big accomplish for me lately) and she did so great. Both of the trainers and the other people in the class couldn't get over how different she was.

A few times she went really stubborn and acted like she was seeing what I would do if she stopped paying attention, which hasn't really happened before. For instance, I'd tell her to "sit," and she would almost sit, then lock eyes with me and stand up again. That went on for about 2-3 minutes twice during the class and I just took her outside to chill out for a second. I still used the prong on the dead ring and only had to pop it a few times to get her attention, so I don't really feel like she's in a position where she's too crazy for the prong and will hurt herself on it. A few times she lunged to try and play with another really high energy dog that's normally in a different class, but I'm really mindful of the fact that she's got a prong on and she only lunged for a split second, then she actually turned and came back to me. She was definitely more polite today and didn't lunge at other dogs as much - but she sang a lot more. We did an agility run through a tunnel, weaves, tire jump, a frame, two jumps, and a ladder - all of these in close proximity with other really reactive dogs and she was so great.

Afterwards we went to Petsmart for cat food and she was good there too. They were having an adoption event and I think they had just finished up a class too, so there were dogs everywhere and she didn't even try to lunge at any of them. Another husky owner came up to us and was like, "What in the world did you do to that husky to make it behave so well?!" and I felt so proud of her I don't know if she's just still getting used to the prong and will eventually act up again (hopefully not), but for now I'm happier than a fat kid with a Twinkie!

Someone mentioned a head collar too, but I'm really not a fan of those. For one thing, I tried it on Ava and she wouldn't take it. I don't think a husky - or anything stubborn - would take well to one of those unless it was introduced when they were really young. After researching them too, I found a couple of things about them that I didn't like. If Ava does take the odd lunge at something now, I'd rather she pinch her neck some than give herself whiplash while wearing a head collar. And I wasn't a fan of how they can put a lot of pressure on their muzzles and rub them raw. That's kind of the same as with a regular choke chain - I think there's more cons than pros about them. I might have to use a chain during CGC testing, but I don't think I would use one long term. Eventually I want to be down to a martingale alone.



Edited to add a picture of her on the way home, asleep on the kitty litter c: