While I agree that nobody should be hurt over this, whipping up a mob is exactly what this needed. Had the anger not run high, this wouldn't have gotten all the attention that it did. If there wasn't a mob of people calling/emailing, this would have been very likely to get swept under the rug.

In the current world of viral media, it's amazing what the pissed off masses can get done. I'm not saying it's all good, but, it certainly is effective.

Domingo wrote:

While I agree that nobody should be hurt over this, whipping up a mob is exactly what this needed. Had the anger not run high, this wouldn't have gotten all the attention that it did. If there wasn't a mob of people calling/emailing, this would have been very likely to get swept under the rug.

In the current world of viral media, it's amazing what the pissed off masses can get done. I'm not saying it's all good, but, it certainly is effective.

Good point.

The only thing that wore on me was the same people commenting and saying the same old B/S with just a few words juggled to make it look relevant.

Like this for instance: Unless your ever in the policemen's shoes you'll never know what went thru the guys head when he pulled the trigger. (My take is that Blue Heelers are not small dogs with yip yappy voices. When you approach an area where your visibility is limited or non-existent if the dog had been a Cane Corso or even a Bully another 2 seconds and the cop could have been just as easily killed or maimed.) Not happy myself with what came down but self preservation is instinctive and hard to override emotion. The cop did what he needed to do if anyone needs retraining its the dispatch to make sure info they hand out is correct.

Have to disagree on the killed part, bitten maybe. How many cops or armed citizens for that matter have died in a dog attack? Google didn't come up with anything recent but I may not had the proper search words. I still say he didn't properly take time to assertion the situation.

Ya I couldn't see a blue heeler killing a 250lb+ officer.

brady.law wrote:

Ya I couldn't see a blue heeler killing a 250lb+ officer.

My point is if you have to take the time to fully identify what is charging you you'll have a good chance of being one the receiving end of a dogs mouth. Not fun, been there done that.

For those that seem to miss the other key word with killed I also mentioned MAIMED and you can be damn well assured a 45-60 pound dog can mess you up.

Here4thePics wrote:

brady.law wrote:

Ya I couldn't see a blue heeler killing a 250lb+ officer.

My point is if you have to take the time to fully identify what is charging you you'll have a good chance of being one the receiving end of a dogs mouth. Not fun, been there done that.

For those that seem to miss the other key word with killed I also mentioned MAIMED and you can be damn well assured a 45-60 pound dog can mess you up.

Probably true Len, you can get messed up. I guess my question is should training identify a dog as such a threat to life and limb for an ARMED individual that it requires the use of deadly force. Especially discharging a firearm in public? Even cranked up crack heads get more consideration than firing with intent to kill with 10 seconds of evaluation. That officer was huge and IMO not in immediate danger. Had it been the afore mentioned crack head he would be in serious trouble.

I don't specifically think this officer should be run out on a rail, because it sounds like the training was the problem. People saying that we shouldn't blame police in general, but that we should blame this officer are only partially right. This officer did what he was trained to do, or make a decision based on a lack of training.

If dogs were as dangerous as some people try to paint them, we'd have mail carriers either being killed/maimed, or shooting dogs daily. I'm not saying that dogs can't be dangerous, but lets keep things in perspective.

Ok, I am new here, and do not mean to step on toes. We live in SA, probably one of the most violent countries in the world. I do NOT own, and never will own, a gun.

I have had situations where aggressive looking dogs storm up to me, only to stop within reach after shouting at them. 90% of us do not have guns, so do we go around shooting dogs? No, we cannot. Yet most of us survive.

I guess what I am trying to say is having a gun is a HUGE responsibility, and commanding that gun is a much more demanding job than commanding a dog. You CANNOT, and should not, ever pull the trigger just like that. I do not care if it is seconds, it is YOUR responsibility to make the correct decision under duress. If not, you should only be carrying non-lethal weapons. We have had our Police Commisioner tell policemen to shoot to kill. And guess what, they have "shot to kill" a few innocent people already, for the exact same reason, not trained to properly assess the situation.

I one night woke up from a noise in my backyard. I grabbed the first thing I could storming out to defend myself against the "intruder", big hammer in my hand. No say the "intruder" was a policeman chasing a thief, and I come storming around the corner hammer raised and half asleep, could the policeman just pull the trigger? Sure hope not.

If you read the "So you are considering a Husky" thread, everyone warns out that Huskies are strong-willed and stubborn, and they are not the only dogs, so even if the guy did recall the dog, it is not to say it would have listened. The cop had the gun trained on the owner already, which already shows he is not properly trained. My brother-in-law is a under-cover Ghost Squad traffic officer. His gun training tells him to unclip the holster, ready to pull the gun out, and have his hand on the weapon, so the person he is facing can see he is armed. But he is not to pull the gun from the holster unless threatened.

I will never change my mind on this. I do not like guns, and if you have a gun, you HAVE to know when to use it and when not to. It is life and death, not something you can shrug your shoulders and say "sorry, I made a mistake". If he fired in seconds like he did, what assessment did he make of where the bullet goes after the dog? It could have ricochet'ed off the paving, through a bedroom window and hit a child. There are loads of considerations before you pull that trigger, and only if your life is in danger should you use it. And his life was hardly in danger from a dog killing him with a single bite. After the bite, he would be justified to shoot.

mayazaayman wrote:

Ok, I am new here, and do not mean to step on toes. We live in SA, probably one of the most violent countries in the world. I do NOT own, and never will own, a gun.....

[too long to repost]

I think that everyone in this thread would agree with you. You aren't saying anything that hasn't already been said.

However, the point is that people and departments make mistakes. If we didn't make mistakes, we'd hardly be called human. But the fact of the matter is that humans wield guns. This man could have just watched his partner get mauled by a dog. He could have had a bad experience with one as a kid. He could have just had a really intense call that was supposed to be routine and he was on edge. There are about a thousand reasons he could have reacted the way he did. The truth is that we don't know why. The only thing we DO know is that he was not prepared to be in that situation at that time.

Do any of those reasons make it okay to do what he did? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If they did, the police wouldn't be discussing making changes.

Sometimes mistakes have to happen before change occurs. There is always a catalyst to change. Sometimes that catalyst is more fatal than others.

Again, I repeat what I said before... even WITH proper training and intense screening of police officers, mistakes will ALWAYS happen. It's human nature and NO ONE is perfect at their job. We as a people have a duty to do the BEST we can to ensure that as FEW mistakes as possible are made... but to demand that mistakes never happen is not only unrealistic, it's unsympathetic to human nature.

I have to disagree. You cannot make mistakes with deadly force. The trigger is the easy way. The officer was trying to avoid the difficult way. If you walk into a stranger's property, you have to be vigilant that there could be a dog, I know I am. Sorry, do not mean to argue with you, as what you are saying is also understandable, but I have a (slightly) different oppinion.

Also, the PD seems pretty reluctant to admit they made a mistake.

Just like a surgeon is trained properly for his job, so should this guy. And if he makes a mistake, he should take responsibility just like a surgeon does.

mayazaayman wrote:

I have to disagree. You cannot make mistakes with deadly force. The trigger is the easy way. The officer was trying to avoid the difficult way. If you walk into a stranger's property, you have to be vigilant that there could be a dog, I know I am. Sorry, do not mean to argue with you, as what you are saying is also understandable, but I have a (slightly) different oppinion.

Also, the PD seems pretty reluctant to admit they made a mistake.

Just like a surgeon is trained properly for his job, so should this guy. And if he makes a mistake, he should take responsibility just like a surgeon does.

See.. you're not listening. NO ONE (not even the PD) is suggesting that the officer shouldn't be held accountable for making a mistake. But punishing the officer will do no good if the training is not addressed because clearly he was not trained well enough to make the right decision.

And you don't have to change your mind, but the point is that you aren't accepting reality. Are you a perfect parent? A perfect friend? No one is perfect 100% of the time... even those who use deadly force. That's just the way of the world and there is NOTHING we can do to change that. All we can do is try our hardest to prepare people as best we can to make as few mistakes as possible. But the hard truth is, no matter how hard we try, things will go wrong and people will make mistakes. And that's not me being pessimistic, it's being realistic. Mistakes are a part of human nature. We are not infallible... just because we are using deadly force is not going to change that.

ETA: The PD is not reluctant to admit they made a mistake if they are apologizing. No one can argue that shooting the dog of an innocent owner was the right call. But the PD does not have the liability insurance that a surgeon does. If a surgeon makes a mistake, should he be fired? What happens? Normally, his insurance pays out a large settlement, there's a mark on his record and everyone moves on. What is a police officer going to do? Making him pay a large sum is probably not possible, or the police station is paying it... and that's just taking money out of the taxpayers pockets.

I have really been trying to stay out of this but I just have to say that I think the problem is that people have become way too comfortable with guns in the way that they are a DEADLY weapon. Firing it can result in death. I feel that the sanctity of life has truly been forgotten. I have been raised with guns since I was a little kid and even now I treat that gun with more respect than anything. It is NEVER pointed at anyone and unless i'm about to fire my finger is never on the trigger. It is a truly powerful and deadly weapon. I feel that a lot of law enforcement have become way too comfortable with it. 2 months ago the same thing happened here. They fired 3 shots into an Australian Shepherd who was barking at them with a young kid about 10 feet away. On their own property. The dog died after being hospitalized for a few weeks.

Just for reference they looked up information on dog shootings and deaths in our area:

Quote :

Pembroke Pines does not track the number of dogs shot by its officers, an official said.

Last year, Hollywood officers shot five dogs. Only one survived. In 2010, they also shot five dogs, killing three.

The numbers were higher for the Broward Sheriff's Office, which provides police services for 14 municipalities and unincorporated Broward.

Deputies have shot five dogs so far this year. They shot 12 dogs last year and another 12 in 2010.

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office provides police services to nine municipalities. Deputies with the agency have shot nine dogs so far this year; four in 2011 and six in 2010.

The numbers were much lower in Sunrise and Davie.

Sunrise officers last shot a dog in 2010.

"Shooting an attacking dog is a last resort," Sgt. Rodney Hailey said. "We would rather use other means first."

That includes a collapsible baton, pepper spray and Tasers.

The Davie Police Department hasn't had a canine shooting in seven years. The last occurrence: SWAT officers delivering a search warrant shot a pit bull that lunged at them when they walked into the home's garage, Capt. Dale Engle said.

In other cases, Davie officers have used Tasers and bean-bag shells instead of bullets on aggressive dogs, Engle said.

"We do not urge our officers to shoot dogs," Engle said. "Once that bullet goes, the bullet could skip. A running dog, you may not hit it."

Davie officers are encouraged to contain the dog and call Broward County Animal Care.

I feel there are much better ways to keep dogs away rather than firing to kill. There is 100% a problem with training in how they deal with these problems but I feel that without this "mob mentality" and overnight explosion of press... Things would have been swept under the rug and the situation would have not been able to make an impact. I mean... 100K "likes" on FB in a week? Hopefully there will be some good that comes from this and it seems that's what the family wants.

I agree with that. I don't have a gun, but there seem to be a number of people out there who hide behind them and are completely desensitized and that's not okay either.

I think people also forget though, that this "mob mentality" in THIS case has achieved positive results, in other cases it has not. How many people who have sent death threats actually meant it? The police pulled Officer Griffin off the streets... what do you think might have happened if they didn't?

I'm a historian. I have read about what happens when mobs get out of control. The Boston Massacre is the first one that comes to mind. Granted, this was viral, but I don't think we can say for certain that:

a) NOTHING would have happened if this didn't go viral (Kristina, you live in Florida, this happened in Texas... while it's discouraging to see your statistics, you can't say for certain that Texas would have "brushed it under the rug" just as I can't say they WOULDN'T have.. the truth is that we just will never know.)

And b) that there would not have been more violence or vigilantes causing harm if the APD hadn't responded the way that they did. If an officer had been injured, would we still feel the same way about this "mass hysteria"? Would we still feel it was justified? Would the life of an officer that made a mistake be proper retribution for the life of Cisco?

In the same way that we ALL find guns a deadly force, I find mass hysteria a lethal weapon and deadly force. With the internet and the media doing what they do nowadays, I am JUST as afraid of our society's desensitization of that as I am of their desensitization from guns.

It's easy to sit here behind our computers and say that this has just been words, but do we really know that it would have been? Do we even really know that it has been?

Koda wrote:

I think people also forget though, that this "mob mentality" in THIS case has achieved positive results, in other cases it has not. How many people who have sent death threats actually meant it? The police pulled Officer Griffin off the streets... what do you think might have happened if they didn't?

I certainly feel that some people did get out of control. But that's the internet for you. You're right, we have no idea who actually would carry such things out and have to take it seriously. So I am 100% in agreement that some people did take this way out of control. I do not agree with that at all, and neither does the family. They have stated many times on FB to please NOT write nasty things or threaten the PD nor the officer.

Quote :

Granted, this was viral, but I don't think we can say for certain that:

a) NOTHING would have happened if this didn't go viral (Kristina, you live in Florida, this happened in Texas... while it's discouraging to see your statistics, you can't say for certain that Texas would have "brushed it under the rug" just as I can't say they WOULDN'T have.. the truth is that we just will never know.)

While I don't think we can say "nothing" would have happened (I didn't say that) but the impact if anything would have been very small compared to what has happened and what probably will come from this.

Quote :

And b) that there would not have been more violence or vigilantes causing harm if the APD hadn't responded the way that they did. If an officer had been injured, would we still feel the same way about this "mass hysteria"? Would we still feel it was justified? Would the life of an officer that made a mistake be proper retribution for the life of Cisco?

They certainly did respond in an appropriate manner eventually, with the amount of response they got. I truly don't feel that the same response would have been had if things didn't end up this way. I think this has gotten so much press and so much feedback because of all aspects of this. It was the wrong house, the man had no idea what was going on and was held at gunpoint, the dog was shot immediately after the officer said to get your dog... All parts of this have added to it's "viral-ness." Do you honestly believe that if he hadn't shot the dog his life would have been in jeopardy? Because I don't. I feel the officer has a right to defend his own life but a dog running and barking doesn't constitute life threatening to me. We can run hundreds of scenarios to see how things would have affected the public more... but in the end this is the scenario that played out. And I personally feel the shooting and killing of the dog was not justified. Based on the owners account and the dash cam. More-so the dash cam.

Quote :

In the same way that we ALL find guns a deadly force, I find mass hysteria a lethal weapon and deadly force. With the internet and the media doing what they do nowadays, I am JUST as afraid of our society's desensitization of that as I am of their desensitization from guns.

I agree, again. I feel that the media and the internet have blown this up incredibly. Some have taken that much farther than necessary. But that's what happens on the internet and the mass media. Remember that guy who put a round into his daughters laptop? That poor guy still has social services calling and poking around because people (IMO) took it WAY too seriously. That's what happens. In such a large group, you will get people who are just way too over the edge.

What if the "mistake" killed a human? Would that have been different? From what I understand the policeman had the gun trained on a person already, that was innocent. And he fired very quickly, so the safety was off. You cannot "mistakenly" go around and point firearms at people.

The "ready, aim, fire" approached have already killed innocent people here in SA. And I agree with Tori that it is the training that was at fault largely. I am not saying the guy should get fired, or fined or whatever, just that he should not handle a deadly weapon until he can handle the responsibility.

mayazaayman wrote:

What if the "mistake" killed a human? Would that have been different? From what I understand the policeman had the gun trained on a person already, that was innocent. And he fired very quickly, so the safety was off. You cannot "mistakenly" go around and point firearms at people.

Different how? Do I think people would be even more upset? Yes. Would my opinion on how to handle this situation have been any different? No.

I don't think that anything deserves a mass hysteria, vigilantism, or death threats. Do I think good people have made some awful irreversible mistakes? Yes.

My general approach to most things is to see things from both sides and to do my best to be as objective and rational as possible. Ironically, had this officer done that, we'd have nothing to discuss So I am not "excusing" him there.

Again-- I don't disagree with any of you. Just because I agree with you though, doesn't mean I can't understand the perspective of the other side. I don't agree with what this cop did. That doesn't mean I can't sympathize with his perspective.

I think that the vigilantes are just as bad as Officer Griffin. THAT is my perspective. As for the rest, I can agree. I just personally do my best to never judge or criticize ANYONE too quickly, too harshly, or too rashly. I think Officer Griffin has a right to be judged by his peers and be handled appropriately according to the law.

I have dealt with many an off leash aggressive dog with no weapons at my disposal. Some weren't so pretty. You don't know what that animal is capable of as it rushes you. Does the person under attack retreat to a posture of canine submission to reduce the chance of a media spectacle? Or does said person quell the situation as to render themselves able to continue the task at hand that may include human lives?

When I see people deflecting to the mental state of gun wielders as the main issue, I just want to remind them of how our populist/collectivist culture has diminished the value of the individual.

If I had a son, he would look like George Zimmerman. That's what the aura of this story reminds me of. None of "us" know what really went down.