This made me think of you

I almost cried when I saw that, because we saced Delilah, and in turn she saved us.

After all of the commotion yesterday, I got in touch with a volunteer for the rescue who has three huskies and lots of experience. She was in my area and wanted to come by and observe Koda and how she reacted.

She came over late yesterday afternoon, Koda barked her head off as soon as she walked in. She came inside and sat on my couch, I sat in a chair across from her. Koda sat right in front of her and continued to bark and howl in her face for several minutes. Lynne remained very calm, she put her hand out and told Koda to Shhh firmly, Koda just kept on. So we both ignored her. Finally she laid on the floor and stopped barking, but she positioned herself in between Lynne and me. We continued talking and ignoring Koda, but Koda was visibly stressed, anxious and unhappy about Lynne being there. I had never seen her like that before. She was quiet but alert and very unhappy. Lynne eased her way onto the floor with Koda. She sat there for several minutes and we just continued talking and ignoring Koda, even though Lynne said Koda was staring her down and kept trying to hold eye contact.

While talking, Lynne moved her hand to pick up something that was on the floor (a piece of velcro or something, not a toy/bone) and Koda reached out and bit her hand. Again, it didn't break the skin but it was a warning.

Apparently Koda has issues with people coming into her house, and even after Lynne was there over an hour she didn't grow any "happier" about her being there. This was disappointing for me, as we were hoping the incident earlier was due to a "strange" man being on all fours that caused her to feel threatened. But Lynne has a very gentle nature, said she's never had a dog not respond well to her because of the energy she gives off. She just doesn't like someone invading her space. We're reviewing our options, continuing to think hard about our decision. We will have to get a behaviorist and probably a muzzle for when people come over. It's sad to me since everyone thought she was friendly and loving towards people, she acted nothing like this when we went to visit her at the foster's home. I just figured everyone would like an update. For now we're in contact with the president of the rescue and trying to see what our options are.

Thanks for the update. Hoping for the best and we here support you with your decision. I don't have much to add other than saying it takes time for a dog to adjust and feel comfortable in their surroundings. I know this from the numerous huskies I've seen pulled from shelters which is a very stressful environment. Insecurity can cause all sorts of atypical behavior.

Lordbroll wrote:

Thanks for the update. Hoping for the best and we here support you with your decision. I don't have much to add other than saying it takes time for a dog to adjust and feel comfortable in their surroundings. I know this from the numerous huskies I've seen pulled from shelters which is a very stressful environment. Insecurity can cause all sorts of atypical behavior.

I completely understand, and that is one thing that makes the decision so hard. We're afraid this behavior may not be atypical. And this is the exact reason that we have a trial period. My husband's condition for a second dog was one that did not have serious issues, since we have such a long way to go with Drake. He was willing to still give Koda a chance once we found out about her aggression to other dogs, but with a trial. He still felt a little uneasy about it, as did I. And now that we're seeing an aggression towards other humans, it makes us even more wary. We want the best for Koda and it weighs very heavily on our hearts what she has been through and what she will potentially go through if we decide to not complete the adoption. Just so everyone knows, the adoption is not official yet. So it's not like we made a "forever" commitment to Koda and are now going back on our word. We agreed on a trial for this exact reason.

We have not made a decision yet, we want to make sure, as Val said, that we don't do anything rash or when we're emotional. So we're talking to people from SHRF, seeing our options with behaviorist, and what her options are if we decided we were uncomfortable going through with the adoption.

I truly don't think it's fair that everyone is passing judgement on the poor dog so fast. i mean you have to think of it this way, if you were uprooted from your house, put into another house, with animals that you didn't know and a family you didn't know...would you just be happy all the time? Me neither. I think you need to give her more time. Bringing a person over to the house could possibly signal that someone is going to take her from her new home, again.

She is stressed and 7-10 days is not enough time to know if she is a "good" dog or not. It took MONTHS for Delilah to be comfortable and even now she can be a butthead.

Dogs have it rough, their house is ALL they have. It's not like you, who gets to leave to go out regularly - you probably go to work, or friends house, etc. You are comfortable in these situations and you trust the people. She has yet to trust anyone because she has gotten bounced around. You need to give her time.

One more thing, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I strongly suggest that if you are not willing to work through the negative traits of a rescue, you should simply get a puppy. Sure, they are a lot of work to house train, etc, but they wont have bad habits you have to nip in the bud. Rescuing takes a lot of commitment and understanding of the individual animal and I am not sure if you and your significant other are ready for that.

P.S. Aggression and Fear are two totally different things. This dog does not seem aggressive, she seems scared. Be very careful with the a word and labeling a dog as such.

mheath0429 wrote:

One more thing, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I strongly suggest that if you are not willing to work through the negative traits of a rescue, you should simply get a puppy. Sure, they are a lot of work to house train, etc, but they wont have bad habits you have to nip in the bud. Rescuing takes a lot of commitment and understanding of the individual animal and I am not sure if you and your significant other are ready for that.

Not sure I agree 100% with the puppy thing. Unproperly socialized puppies can have very similar issues. Koda is very young and huskies stay puppish longer than most breeds. Adopting a older adult dog is just as reliable, IMO.

mheath0429 wrote:

One more thing, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I strongly suggest that if you are not willing to work through the negative traits of a rescue, you should simply get a puppy. Sure, they are a lot of work to house train, etc, but they wont have bad habits you have to nip in the bud. Rescuing takes a lot of commitment and understanding of the individual animal and I am not sure if you and your significant other are ready for that.

We're clearly willing to work through the negative traits of a rescue or we wouldn't have adopted Drake, who will take a VERY long time to become a normal and stable dog. I understand what you're saying, but at the same time I don't think its fair for you to label us as "unwilling". We are wary of having TWO rescues who have serious issues, hence the trial period for Koda. Not all rescues have serious issues like Drake and Koda...I know of several up for adoption through SHRF who do not.

rnelsen wrote:

Lordbroll wrote:

Thanks for the update. Hoping for the best and we here support you with your decision. I don't have much to add other than saying it takes time for a dog to adjust and feel comfortable in their surroundings. I know this from the numerous huskies I've seen pulled from shelters which is a very stressful environment. Insecurity can cause all sorts of atypical behavior.

I completely understand, and that is one thing that makes the decision so hard. We're afraid this behavior may not be atypical. And this is the exact reason that we have a trial period. My husband's condition for a second dog was one that did not have serious issues, since we have such a long way to go with Drake. He was willing to still give Koda a chance once we found out about her aggression to other dogs, but with a trial. He still felt a little uneasy about it, as did I. And now that we're seeing an aggression towards other humans, it makes us even more wary. We want the best for Koda and it weighs very heavily on our hearts what she has been through and what she will potentially go through if we decide to not complete the adoption. Just so everyone knows, the adoption is not official yet. So it's not like we made a "forever" commitment to Koda and are now going back on our word. We agreed on a trial for this exact reason.

We have not made a decision yet, we want to make sure, as Val said, that we don't do anything rash or when we're emotional. So we're talking to people from SHRF, seeing our options with behaviorist, and what her options are if we decided we were uncomfortable going through with the adoption.

We are here for support in whatever you and your hubby decides. I think one of the most important things that you realized is that you know what your capabilities are with handling this situation. Yes, a week is not enough time for any dog to settle in, however, I believe you stated in a previous reply that you nor your hubby have exeprience with something like this and recognize you may be doing a bigger disservice to Koda by trying to keep her rather than find a home with someone that CAN handle the situation appropriately. I know this is tough, and by all your replies, this is not a decision you're taking lightly and you and hubby are giving this a LOT of thought. Yes, we can guide you, and help you along the way but sometimes things like this over the internet may not be enough for some people. Whatever you and hubby decide, we're here to support you.

Lordbroll wrote:

mheath0429 wrote:

One more thing, and I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I strongly suggest that if you are not willing to work through the negative traits of a rescue, you should simply get a puppy. Sure, they are a lot of work to house train, etc, but they wont have bad habits you have to nip in the bud. Rescuing takes a lot of commitment and understanding of the individual animal and I am not sure if you and your significant other are ready for that.

Not sure I agree 100% with the puppy thing. Unproperly socialized puppies can have very similar issues. Koda is very young and huskies stay puppish longer than most breeds. Adopting a older adult dog is just as reliable, IMO.

I think I agree with Brian on this one too...

i know the 2 of you are struggling with what is going on with koda but how is Drake doing with all this? is HE happier? thats why you wanted a 2nd right? when we got Sierra (our first husky/dog, we both grew up in homes with dogs but were never the caregivers) we realized we had a lot to learn and some of it was done the hard way. like trying to introduce Sierra to our chinchillas the first night she was in our home (did not end well) she was scared, jumpy, not friendly towards Ken (we knew of the men issues) and here we are wondering whys she was not "acting" normal, when we stepped back to think and talk to the people we got her from we learned that we were i think the 4th home she had been in in the last few months, and the last home, that lasted a night because she got out and ran into a lake and around town before the people got her, we realized everything she had been involved in and we just stepped back and let her just hang out in the house and tried to let her know WE were not gonna give up on her, you know what 3yrs later i would not have traded her for the world even if some days we were lost on what to do and ken never thought she would like him. after only a month we added jack and man did sierra turn into a different dog, a better dog. i know its your decision on what to do with her and it sounds like you do have some help from the rescue, maybe they can help you out, koda needs time to feel a part of your family and after she does i bet she will be better with visitors, remember she had NO issues when you went to see her in the foster home, how long was she there for, was she settled? that could be why she did not mind you coming in to meet her, she needs the same time and love from you in her new home. we are all here to help and most of us have rescued and we have all been in a place like yours figuring out the issues and doing our best to make our new family members feel at home, some do in a week, i think it took sierra and jack each a month. hang in there and really thing about what is best for all involved.

I agree that the word aggression should NOT be used at ALL around Koda. She is not aggressive, she is scared. And I also agree with Brian that an older dog at a rescue is easier. A puppy is a ton of work and stress.

I'm also with Claudia and Jenn on this one. They both have experience with having two huskies, rescues at that. So do I, so I understand how stressful this is right now for you. Especially if hubby isn't 100% on board.

It's your family's decision to go ahead with the adoption or not. You live with your situation 24/7 and no one has the right to tell you what to do. No one here is judging you if you go either way. If you don't go through with the adoption, she's safe at the rescue and will hopefully find someone that is willing to work with her on her behavior.

However, before you make a decision - I would like to see NILIF strictly implemented for at least a week as she settles in. It really does make a difference and reminds the dog who is the boss. No sofa, no bed, working for food. Our 2nd husky was the high maintenance one, which I'm thankful for because it allowed us to be very strict with the first one and realize it works without "feeling bad" about being so strict. Koda is still trying to figure out her place in the hierarchy in your home - and that's really stressful for a dog.

Drake is much happier with her around, I have zero issues with them together. But she definitely is still aggressive towards other dogs (I had to put her up when Drake's husky-friend Apollo came over) and now either aggressive/fearful (I suppose it's too early to tell which) towards people who come in our home. The fosters only had her one week, which is how long we will have had her tomorrow, so it doesn't make much sense to me except maybe she is happier here?? I don't know...

I wrote that post before I saw what you said about labeling her as aggressive...maybe she is fearful of people, but she is a downright alpha beyotch when it comes to other dogs...they are scared of HER. Those are not just my words, but the fosters as well. Koda terrorized one of her other female dogs to the point she wouldn't even leave her room and walk around the house.

Rachel, I'm glad to hear that you had someone experienced come over to interact with and observe Koda. Definitely sounds like he needs work and I wouldn't blame you or your husband if it is too much to deal with the issues of two different dogs at the same time. I would be interested to know how she would behave in the same scenario except without you or your husband present. Generally it's in everyone's best interest to take on a new dog when all other pets in the household are fine with no issues to work out. I know that your particular case with Drake is special and understand why you opted to bring Koda into the picture.

It is very reassuring to hear that you will be bringing in a behaviorist and taking your time to consider what is best for you and Koda. If it is not meant to be then it's not meant to be. I don't want to push you in either direction, you will know in your heart and mind what is right soon enough.

FWIW, we took on a fearful dog without knowing it before we adopted her. She's not aggressive but she will bite out of fear. She's a constant challenge and we still work with her issues to this day, almost 2 years later. She cannot EVER be trusted with people she isn't familiar or comfortable with. For that reason she is ALWAYS crated when people come to our house, not just for our guests' safety but for her sake as well. If it's a really high stress situation for her she is crated in a totally separate room with the door shut to ease her anxiety. It's a very sad thing to live with but I can relate to how hard it is to deal with and what a lifelong challenge it can be to try to overcome. We could never give her up over her fear based aggression but that's just a commitment we made personally and I wouldn't blame anyone if it was too much for them.

Just remember, you are in our thoughts and we support you no matter what happens.

Thank you, Val. I really, REALLY appreciate your kind words.

rnelsen wrote:

I wrote that post before I saw what you said about labeling her as aggressive...maybe she is fearful of people, but she is a downright alpha beyotch when it comes to other dogs...they are scared of HER. Those are not just my words, but the fosters as well. Koda terrorized one of her other female dogs to the point she wouldn't even leave her room and walk around the house.

There's a difference between aggression and dominant behavior and you need to educate yourself and hubby now. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dominatebehaviorsdogs.htm

Some of it might not seem like it is - e.g Nudging to be pet, Guarding a human from others approaching, Sitting in high places looking down on everything. Letting her exhibit these behaviors eggs her on. As the leader, *I* control all the resources in my dog's life. That is how a real pack leader leads. They don't get pets unless I initiate it, or make them do something for the pets (sit, down, etc). They're not allowed on the furniture, only the pack leaders get the softest beds. They are not allowed to guard us from other dogs or people, I put them in a down stay if they try. Chili can play with his sister but he's not allowed to "terrorize" her. He gets corrected with a water spray, or a time out. Consistent, firm yet loving leadership reminds the dog who is boss.

hollywoodhuskies wrote:

rnelsen wrote:

I wrote that post before I saw what you said about labeling her as aggressive...maybe she is fearful of people, but she is a downright alpha beyotch when it comes to other dogs...they are scared of HER. Those are not just my words, but the fosters as well. Koda terrorized one of her other female dogs to the point she wouldn't even leave her room and walk around the house.

There's a difference between aggression and dominant behavior and you need to educate yourself and hubby now. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dominatebehaviorsdogs.htm

Some of it might not seem like it is - e.g Nudging to be pet, Guarding a human from others approaching, Sitting in high places looking down on everything. Letting her exhibit these behaviors eggs her on. As the leader, *I* control all the resources in my dog's life. That is how a real pack leader leads. They don't get pets unless I initiate it, or make them do something for the pets (sit, down, etc). They're not allowed on the furniture, only the pack leaders get the softest beds. They are not allowed to guard us from other dogs or people, I put them in a down stay if they try. Chili can play with his sister but he's not allowed to "terrorize" her. He gets corrected with a water spray, or a time out. Consistent, firm yet loving leadership reminds the dog who is boss.

Thank you for that website, I recognize some of those behaviors but not others. She never initiates attention but loves it when I give it to her, she only will jump on furniture when called (she tried to "claim" furniture her first couple of days here, and became mean to Drake when he would try to jump on it, so we didn't allow her on furniture for several days and now she knows to only jump on it if we tell her it's okay. She seems to know the command "off" pretty well). I really don't see a lot of those dominant traits with us, she seems very obedient and "chill". It's with other dogs that I've seen it displayed, and of course her first couple of days here...

Another great article:
http://www.lhasahappyhomes.org/Dominance%20vs.%20Aggression_21.htm

"The root of this problem is that the dog does not believe his guardian is in control, or sees no reason to respect him, and therefore takes on the protective, dominant role. "

Also familiarize yourself with the escalating steps to biting. Biting does not happen out of the blue. She was barking to tell you she was uncomfortable with the situation. A dog will show you they're about to bite. Familiarize yourself with your dog's body language: http://www.wagntrain.com/BodyLanguage2.htm

It's subtle but understanding it helps you protect her. Yawning, shaking her body, etc - those are all signs of stress.

No furniture until she calms down. I know it's hard and you want to cuddle, but it makes it worse.

Edit : also what worked for us - a ton of exercise to get rid of that stress energy.

My huskies, all rescues, have responded better to kindness and positive reinforcement beyer than any of the "Ceasar Millan pack leader training" They respond best when I put myself in their shoes and ask what's in it for me. Just my experience and what works for some dogs may not work for others.

Rachel I feel so bad for you! It seems like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place! It's gotta be tough going through this, but so many people on here, including myself support you! Koda is a beautiful dog and I hope she stay's with you and you're family, but if you believe in you're heart that she is not the dog for you, then I completely understand. Maybe Koda is best being in a single dog home and Drake with an older/active dog. Whatever decision you make, just know that everyone here supports you, but like I said before, I do hope Koda work's out for you! **Hugs**

Just so no one is mistaken, I'm not a fan of Cesar Milan and his techniques. When I discuss pack leader, it's in the context of being the controller of the resources. The only thing I agree on with Cesar is the need for exercise and remaining calm. Koda is freaking out because she has no structure, no leader, no consistency and is trying to fend for herself like a feral dog (all due to all the moving around and previous owners). Providing her with structure, a leader and affection will go a LONG way to making her more confident to the point where she doesn't respond with fearful biting.

Sam, while I do think NILIF is fantastic and should really be practiced in all pet homes, it's effect will vary from dog to dog and from person to person. I don't really get the sense that NILIF is going to have a big impact in the short term especially based on everything Rachel has posted. Will it help long term, I am 100% positive that it will but I don't see it making such a dramatic difference in the short "trial" period that Rachel and her husband will have Koda. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just the sense I get since Koda does not sound like she has an issue with human authority.

I use NILIF with all my dogs but my fearful aggressive case is special. She has come leaps and bounds and has immense respect for myself and my husband but her fear and resulting aggression with others besides her immediate "pack" (both human and dog) at home has not impacted her fear of or aggression toward other humans that she feels threatened by which is pretty much everyone. We've used positive reinforcement with her all this time from ourselves and visiting guests but it is something we still deal with to this day, and I don't consider myself a novice at training/positive reinforcement by any means. I just know how my own dog is about fear biting and some dogs just don't get over it that quickly. While I certainly hope he's not, Koda may be a case similar to ours. But after such a short time there's no way to know just yet.

Just to echo what Brian and Val have said, positive reinforcement is what works for us too. That means as far as possible, setting the dog up for success,ignoring bad behaviour and rewarding the positive.

Sam, I get that you didn't mean to use negative reinforcement when you were talking about 'pack leader', but that's what most people understand that kind of approach to mean.

Fwiw, I know of two studies that have compared positive reinforcement approaches to training companion animals versus a more negative/pack theory approach. The dogs trained using positive reinforcement were less likely to have behavioural problems and less likely to show aggression. Okay, that's only two studies, but I don't know of any that showed the opposite, and this is part of a wider change in canine behavioural science away from pack theory/dominance ideas.

Rachel, I'm sorry it turns out that Koda is so unhappy with people coming into the home. This trial run has certainly turned out to be a trial. Only you can decide the best thing for you and your husband, Drake, and Koda, and whatever that is, we're here to support you.