I've read on different threads that normally a husky female (who needs to maintain weight...not gain) should be eating 1 1/2 cups daily. I've had Mya on Wellness Core reduced calorie kibble for a few months, but recently got her back on normal kibble since she's down to 55lbs. Ideally I want her at 52lbs so I would like for her to continue with minimal weight loss.

Before the switch back to reg kibble (Wellness Core Ocean) I was feeding her:

Breakfast:

1/3 cup THK (Keen)
1/2 cup reduced cal kibble

Dinner:

1 raw drumstick w/ green beans OR 1 drumstick w/ 1/3 cup THK....OR 1/3 THK & 1/3 reduced cal kibble

Now that she's not on reduced cal kibble anymore I'm feeding her the same out, but have cut down the 1/2 kibble for breakfast to 1/3 cup.

Does that sound about right in order for her to drop a few more lbs?

Calculate the calories you were giving her in the reduced cal. From there, you can figure out how much calories to give in the regular kibble for maintenance. If you need to get her to lose more weight, then drop the kibble or THK calories.

I tried the whole calorie thing but what I think works best is just trial and error. Esp. with things like raw I never really know how many calories that's contributing. I'd say dropping the kibble to 1/3 would be a good place to start.

Calories are "heat energy". The body, and more importantly, the METABOLISM, kinda needs that! If you are taking out her calories, you're taking away her metabolism speed. It'll just slow her down. I say get her off the reduced calorie food.

It is more important to know where those calories are coming from. High Protein is best, but you have to know where the protein is coming from. Grain-free is the best way to go. If the calories are coming from grains, oats, potatoes, other starches, or fat, cut it out.

With that in mind, I'd also have her off THK. I'd say you could, in theory, keep her on it and cut out some kibble and up the RAW, but I would only say that for "hard keeper" dogs. If you're trying to get her to lose weight, she obviously isn't a hard keeper. Sibes store protein for energy, not carbs. And THK is VERY carb and "bulk" heavy. She's getting nothing but sugar, and storing it, but never really using it. I'd say about 80% of Sibes I see on a carb/sugar heavy diet end up with fatty tumors or diabetic issues later in life. It just isn't healthy for them. Granted, she isn't on much, but it isn't exactly something she "needs needs needs", so why keep her on it?

I'd recommend high meat-sourced protein kibble and maybe up her RAW a little. And, of course, make sure she is getting plenty of exercise.

arooroomom wrote:

I tried the whole calorie thing but what I think works best is just trial and error. Esp. with things like raw I never really know how many calories that's contributing. I'd say dropping the kibble to 1/3 would be a good place to start.

That's my thing. I don't know how many calories are in the raw but I'm guessing that a drumstick and green beans can't be too fattening....lol.

I'm going to drop down the kibble to 1/3 cup and see how that goes

Copy and pasted: 112 calories in 1 average size drumstick including the skin; 76 calories in 1 average size drumstick without the skin.

Calories in canned green beans - about 22 calories per 1/2 cup.

Calories in 1 cup of snap, raw green beans - 31 calories.

Lyzelle wrote:

Grain-free is the best way to go. If the calories are coming from grains, oats, potatoes, other starches, or fat, cut it out.

With that in mind, I'd also have her off THK. I'd say you could, in theory, keep her on it and cut out some kibble and up the RAW, but I would only say that for "hard keeper" dogs. If you're trying to get her to lose weight, she obviously isn't a hard keeper. Sibes store protein for energy, not carbs. And THK is VERY carb and "bulk" heavy. She's getting nothing but sugar, and storing it, but never really using it. I'd say about 80% of Sibes I see on a carb/sugar heavy diet end up with fatty tumors or diabetic issues later in life. It just isn't healthy for them. Granted, she isn't on much, but it isn't exactly something she "needs needs needs", so why keep her on it?

I'd recommend high meat-sourced protein kibble and maybe up her RAW a little. And, of course, make sure she is getting plenty of exercise.

Yep, she's on grain free kibble (Wellness Core Ocean), but not on the grain free formula of THK. They used to be on Embark (which is grain free), but that was getting too pricey. They LOVE LOVE LOVE their THK so I don't think I would want to stop feeding it to them. Plus, she only gets 1/3 cup in the mornings. She's been on it for months and still continued to loose weight though. They get exercised twice daily plus playing in the yard a few times as well.

Heatherlee wrote:

Copy and pasted: 112 calories in 1 average size drumstick including the skin; 76 calories in 1 average size drumstick without the skin.

Calories in canned green beans - about 22 calories per 1/2 cup.

Calories in 1 cup of snap, raw green beans - 31 calories.

Google should be my best friend, huh? LOL!!

They get the drumsticks without skin most of the time and she gets 1/2 cup of green beans so almost 100 calories for dinner isn't bad at all! A cup of wellness core is 417 calories so she gets about 140 calories from that in the morning and I'm trying to find the calories in THK Keen, but am not having much luck and don't have time to keep searching right now....work work work! Either way, I just emailed them and they've replied to me fairly quickly in the past. If not, I'll look at the box when I get home...

Just because they love it, it doesn't mean it is good for them. And just because it it a good food, it doesn't mean that it is good for all dogs.

And a 1/3 of a cup in her diet is still a lot...around 20%. Especially since there is still a lot of carbs/sugar in the CORE. Potatoes, Flaxseed, peas, carrots, etc. She's getting plenty in the CORE, again, around 20%.

Sibes only "coast" on carbs and sugars. While active, they burn protein. Having her on a carb/grain-heavy TLK doesn't do much for her, except load her system with sugar that she doesn't use. Personally, I'd cut it out completely, or switch to a more protein based formula. That way, you're up'ing her kibble and/or RAW, stuff her body is actually going to use.

And like I said, calories are VERY much need in the body. "How much" doesn't matter. It is "where it is coming from". The reason she is still losing weight on the HK is because you've deprived her metabolism of energy by cutting calories. Therefore, her body is "coasting" and only burning sugar....not the protein it should be burning from the RAW and Kibble.

JMO, though, take it or leave it.

235.23 calories/cup after being hydrated- Google again

While I don't personally like THK I don't think it's an inadequate food. I also believe that feeding a higher quality kibble (like CORE) you're already getting a better "quality" calorie rather than feeding a dog Beneful. If we were comparing feeding Beneful to CORE than i'd agree and would most certainly recommend finding a better quality calorie.

But since Mel is feeding such high quality food as is- I don't think that the THK "needs" to be eliminated. I think it probably would be better to up the amount of raw and reduce either the kibble or THK but I feed raw to my dogs and I think that's the most superior diet you can feed so i'm a bit biased.

THK is in my opinion filled with high quality "fillers" (such as all the veggies and greens and whatever else) which is shown by the amount of waste that is produced. But it's also a very filling food. For a dog who is "dieting" or having their food cut back I think it's a good choice.

I'm not hogging on THK at all. It really is a good food. But I see no purpose for it in this particular diet. It's why I suggested that if she wants to stay on THK, just switch to a different formula or cut it down and up the RAW or kibble.

Veggies are good fillers, I agree with that. My problem with Keen is all the oats, alfalfa, etc...those aren't fillers. They are loaded carbs that get stored as sugar.

CORE is a great food too, and it does great by itself/with raw so, again, that's why I'm saying THK has no point in this diet, except to load her dog on sugar. And sugar loaded dogs aren't healthy, no matter how good of food you feed them. It is really quite...contradictory. Why feed them great food if you're just going to ruin it with sugar? Might as well be Beneful.

Playing devil's advocate here. I'm curious Liz, you keep saying what you don't suggest but haven't offered a suggestion on what kibble you think would be best for Mya. You've said you would put Mya on a diet of Raw and to quote you "high meat-sourced protein kibble". Yet when you found out she's on Core which is meat sourced and grain free you didn't recommend that due to the sugars which I understand.

Short of Ziwipeak what else is there that is truly low carb and low sugar? Even one of the best kibbles, in my opinion Orijen, contains starches and sugars like potato, sweet potato, carrots, etc.

I'd disagree with you on Mya being starved of the protein she needs while on the foods she's on. Yes, I'll admit THK is heavy on the fruits and veggies but most of us feed it with additional raw meat as Melissa has been doing. Combine the raw meat with the quality kibble plus THK I think Mya is on a better diet than a lot of other dogs on this forum alone. Plus, with THK a lot of the grains, veggies and fruits pass through mostly undigested, hence the large stool volume which means she won't be retaining that much carbs and sugars when all is said and done. Plus you could also argue that the meat in THK may be absorbed better and more useable because it's less processed than the highly processed and nutrient stripped meats in kibble. It's one of those arguments that could go on forever. Seeing as Mya's on all three I'd say Melissa's got her bases pretty well covered.

I agree with Kristina, it's trial and error. Any changes made I would keep minor. I think dropping from 1/2 cup to 1/3 cup sounds fine and just monitor how she does and make any further adjustments as necessary.

You took a lot of what I said out of context, Val. I never said HK is bad, I never said CORE is bad, I never said Mya was being starved of protein.

Core is a great kibble with a lot of good ratios. It actually is lower on carbs and sugars. HK is also a great food, but Keen is carb and sugar heavy with only one protein source. Alone, they are good foods. Together, they double the carbs and sugar. Also, HK Keen isn't filled with healthy fillers like veggies...Oats, Potatoes, alfalfa...those are grains. Sugar. I suggested she could keep her on HK...just switch the formula. Those grains are useless in this diet.

I never said Mya was being starved of protein. I said she was being deprived of calories. Calories fuel the metabolism. Sibes burn sugar when inactive. When active, they burn protein. Cutting calories forces their body into the "inactive" state. All the protein in her diet is going to waste since she is burning sugars. This explains why she is still losing weight.

Cutting the sugar and increasing the protein AND calories in either the kibble or RAW will turn her metabolism back "on". She'll burn protein, store a little sugar for rainy days, and still lose weight...even without a huge amount of exercise.

Did I take your comments out of context? If so, then it seem both of us are since I don't recall ever implying that you considered any of the above mentioned foods "bad".

You still never answered my question on what you WOULD suggest for a kibble that Mya should be on. I got the impression from the following statement that you had a better kibble in mind than Core.

Lyzelle wrote:

Especially since there is still a lot of carbs/sugar in the CORE. Potatoes, Flaxseed, peas, carrots, etc. She's getting plenty in the CORE, again, around 20%.

Lyzelle wrote:

I'd recommend high meat-sourced protein kibble and maybe up her RAW a little. And, of course, make sure she is getting plenty of exercise.

I'll ask again because I truly am interested in your opinion, what "high meat-sourced protein kibble" would you suggest instead of Core since it has so much unwanted sugar?

Lyzelle wrote:

HK Keen isn't filled with healthy fillers like veggies...Oats, Potatoes, alfalfa...those are grains. Sugar. I suggested she could keep her on HK...just switch the formula. Those grains are useless in this diet.

Again I will agree to disagree with you here. I am typically a big fan of grain free but I do actually like THK's Keen formula because of their decision to use oats as a grain. Yes, when digested it can be sugar heavy but at the same time oats also have a variety of positives to them as well. There are pros and cons to almost every food but I prefer the benefits of oats to the negatives. It's one of those things that as an individual a person needs to learn what they can and make an educated decision. As filling as they are for a fairly sedentary dog that needs to lose weight while also sticking to a budget, I think oats are one of the better grains to be on if one is going to be on a grain in the first place. I am insanely picky about what goes into my dogs and even I prefer a diet of Keen plus raw over most grain free kibbles even. I respect that you think differently and I like being able to openly discuss different points of view. Goodness I've seen some spirited debate on dog food forums over dehydrated raw versus grain free kibbles and I think it's safe to say it's one of those topics where people just have to agree to disagree.

Lyzelle wrote:

I never said Mya was being starved of protein. I said she was being deprived of calories. Calories fuel the metabolism. Sibes burn sugar when inactive. When active, they burn protein. Cutting calories forces their body into the "inactive" state. All the protein in her diet is going to waste since she is burning sugars. This explains why she is still losing weight.

Cutting the sugar and increasing the protein AND calories in either the kibble or RAW will turn her metabolism back "on". She'll burn protein, store a little sugar for rainy days, and still lose weight...even without a huge amount of exercise.

My apologies, I was typing from what I was trying to remember and I'm sorry if I got terms confused. I guess I was in the mindset of Mya wasn't getting the calories from protein that she needed from your previous statements that I must have thought calories = protein and just substituted protein for calories in my post. So sorry for that minor error! Now that we've got all that cleared up, Mya is a fairly sedentary dog so first off she doesn't have a substantial demand for a lot of working energy. To the best of my knowledge Mya spends most of her days at home, sleeping probably, with a few playtimes with Kody plus a few walks thrown in on a daily basis. So if, like you say, "Sibes burn sugar when inactive. When active, they burn protein." then I would think Mya would be doing quite fine since she's likely pretty inactive the majority of the day. Just trying to use basic logic with that statement...please don't hurt me!

I really need to run so I'll cut this short (hope I'm not leaving something out). Please realize Liz that I'm not trying to make anyone out to be the bad guy or say that you're wrong and I'm right. Far from it! We each have our opinions based on facts, things we've learned/experienced, and just our personal preferences. I am perfectly happy agreeing to disagree. My intention here is education. I can honestly say that I hate it when people just listen to what I say and don't ever question anything, I don't know best and I don't know everything. Hence, when a really nice chance at debate comes up that gets people to start thinking and asking questions I jump at the chance to engage. Believe me, my questioning, playing devils advocate, and countering is for more than just for mine, the OP's, and other posters in this threads benefit. I just want to make sure you know I'm not attacking you or anything, just fostering some healthy debate and encouraging readers to think for themselves.

Wow, thanks girls! Totally learning a lot from this thread!!!

Val, yes your statement is correct:

"Mya is a fairly sedentary dog so first off she
doesn't have a substantial demand for a lot of working energy. To the
best of my knowledge Mya spends most of her days at home, sleeping
probably, with a few playtimes with Kody plus a few walks thrown in on a
daily basis."

I'm curious about this also....

"So if, like you say, "Sibes burn sugar when inactive.
When active, they burn protein." then I would think Mya would be doing
quite fine since she's likely pretty inactive the majority of the day.
Just trying to use basic logic with that statement...please don't hurt
me! "

Liz, thanks for your input on this! I've been wanting to up Mya's raw either way so I might just do that and lower her THK intake, but like Val said, it's much better food than many of the other options out there. Mya is very picky so to find a food that she LOVES is awesome!

I don't know much about doggie nutrition, but my main goal was to have Mya lose the weight and she has. My main concern for her was all of the extra pounds hurting her joints. We had to put her on Glucosamine about a year ago because her hips seemed to be acting up. She's SO MUCH better now that she's been on it and weighs so much less so I'm happy with that. I just don't want her gaining any of the weight back. That's all. I think that my two are pretty spoiled and eat pretty good foods. I know my pocket feels it..lol.

Thanks again for your input ladies. It's very much appreciated!!!

No offense taken, of course. I understand it's kind of confusing. Sibes just have to go and make everything complicated. Lol.

A working sled dog, for example, uses high amounts of energy and needs them for a long period of time. Sugar wouldn't work. It burns out too quickly, and can't be stored in high enough quantities. Protein, on the other hand, is more easily stored in the muscles and lasts much longer. Thus, why working dogs need high protein and high fat diets for working, and moderate carbs for resting in-between. Low working dogs only need moderate protein and fat for day-to-day usage and minimal carbs for things like over night, "rainy days" or days they aren't as active, etc..

A healthy Sibe with a balanced diet should be able to maintain weight fairly easily using an active metabolism. "Active Metabolism" does NOT equal active dog. Every living, breathing mammal should have an active metabolism. This means calories. Calories = Heat energy(metabolism energy). A high metabolism is used by animals who need the most out of their food. A high metabolism works quickly and efficiently. Sibes are born, build, and bred for a high metabolism. It is natural to them, because of the work they were bred to do. So even when lazy, their metabolism should still function "naturally". "Natural" for a Sibe is "high". In an active metabolism, sugar and fats would be minimally stored and otherwise useless. The body works longer and more efficiently off of protein.

A low metabolism occurs in animals resting for short periods of time, like when you sleep over night. This is why eating a lot of protein before bed is discouraged...your metabolism slows down and is unable to process it.

An inactive metabolism occurs in animals that are at rest for long periods of time, like bears in hibernation. Bears get fat off of fats and some carbs, store them, and use them all winter. Their metabolism slows down to allow sugars and fats to be used slowly.

Right now, Mya is being fed for a low metabolism, even though her natural metabolism is very high.

I highly suggest CORE as a kibble and RAW as an additional protein source. That is a great diet. HK Keen is carb heavy, grain heavy. Without Core, and with RAW it might be OK, but Mya already gets her carbs and sugars from CORE, so HK Keen is just overfeeding her on carbs. Switching to a more 50/50 HK formula of protein and carbs will be a great addition to her diet. But Keen isn't 50/50. It is more 35/65, give her less protein and more carbs, throwing off the ratios in her diet. Thus, her metabolism is coming to a "low" setting from the lack of protein and only burning sugar...her metabolism is in "low" so it can make the sugar last longer...and only the sugar that is absolutely needed that that particular time. All the excess gets stored. Excess storage of carbs/fat/sugar can lead to fatty cysts.

Since Mya is a low-energy dog with a high metabolism, she needs high protein, moderate fat, minimal carbs/sugar. That can be obtained by:

RAW and CORE
RAW and HK
Or, RAW, CORE, and a HK formula that is more 50/50 on her carbs and protein...either lower the Keen greatly(to about 1/6 of her diet) and up her protein, or switch to a different formula in HK.

I'm not saying the grains in Keen are bad...I'm saying she is already getting them from Core, so it is pointless to add more. CORE IS high protein, low carb...I never said it wasn't. The OP was a little confusing as if she was on CORE or not, so I made a general statement. After it was cleared up, I suggested the above....lower the HK, switch formulas or take it out.

I hoped that made sense and cleared up your questions?

Quote :

I just don't want her gaining any of the weight back. That's all.

Unfortunately, she will gain the weight back on a high-carb diet. Right now, her body is in a "OMG, where is my protein?!" stage. As it adjusts to being partially starved of energy, her metabolism will continue to slow down and the carbs will continue to be stored, and stored.....and stored.....until she starts gaining the weight back. Especially if she isn't a terribly active dog. Nothing is burning those carbs away. And if you up her exercise, her body will kick back into "high" mode...but won't have the energy to sustain it....so she'll lose the weight again...rinse and repeat. It's an up and down juggling act.

High protein, low carb diet is just easier. Lol. Her natural metabolism should adjust her weight automatically as long as it is being fed a healthy diet of high protein, moderate fat, and minimal carbs.

Treat for you Liz! That was a fantastic post. I very much agree.

Although, I would say that once Mya gets down to her desired weight a nice rotation of high protein, low carb foods in general would be best. Switching around will give her variety and achieve more balance over time. But with a more sedentary dog like Mya I wouldn't opt to put her on a really high protein diet that'll boost her energy too much for a dog that stays home all day...another good reason for a rotation to balance things out.

Thank you.

And, definitely. There were a lot of "highs" "moderates" and all that in there. If I mixed it up somewhere, totally my fault. Mya shouldn't be on an ungodly amount of protein, it'll make her super energetic. Somewhere in the high 20s and low 30s should be perfect, especially since she is getting RAW. Basically "higher" than most pet dogs, but less than high maintenance working dogs. Being a lazy dog with a high metabolism just sorta evens it out in the middle.

NO NO SHE DOESN'T NEED A BOOST OF ENERGY!! LMAO! Kody might think that she does though. He'll run circles around her once she's tired. Crazy pup!

There was a lot of info posted here so as of right now do you girls agree that I should:

- Lower her THK intake (can't switch formulas yet because I literally just bought the 10lb box on Saturday and that will last like 2 months!)

- Give her the 1/3 cup of CORE for breakfast with the lower portion of THK

- Up her raw for dinner to compensate for the lower portions of THK?

You don´t need special diet food, just reduce the amount of food she gets. And of course pick a food without any sugar or grain, these things are not helpful with reducing weight and besides of it they don´t belong into dog food anyway in my opinion

Does Mya actually seem hungry on her previous portions?

I'm sure Liz will not agree with me here but I wouldn't switch or reduce THK until she's hit her weight goal which won't be for long since she's only got a few pounds to go. I say that because Keen is very filling and if she loves her food then it'll make it easier on her and she won't feel as hungry. It's worked for her so far so why not carry it out for the last 2 or 3 lbs that she has to lose.

Raw is of course better so upping the raw portions and lowering THK would be my preferred method but I know that will depend on how much raw you have on hand, cost, and freezer space.

And of course I think you'd be fine just keeping your normal feeding schedule as is and lowering the kibble portion just a tad to compensate for the extra calories. I'd really do what you feel works best for you. Sugars or not, I am still a huge fan of Keen and my sibe has really done amazing and thrived on it combined with raw. He lost all his excess fat when on Keen + Raw and turned into a gorgeous, healthy little muscle machine. When I decided to reintroduce grain free premium (hi protein, low carb) kibble in small amounts back into the mix he started getting what I would consider the doggy equivalent of love handles. It was like as soon as we started giving even the smallest amounts of kibble he started gaining the excess fat again (and yes, I did compensate feeding amounts). It wasn't a case of him getting "fat" on kibble, it was more a case of kibble makes him less lean and muscular than he was on THK + Raw. Based on my experience, I much prefer Keen + Raw over Keen + kibble or even kibble alone. But to each his own. I just know the results we've gotten with it with our dogs and I can't argue with what works for us. We're feeding grain free Grandma Lucy's right now but I'm still happier with it over grain free kibble despite all the starch (potato) it has.

I'm sure Liz will weigh in when she gets a chance. Do what works best for you.

Yeah, I don't agree with not lowering the HK. Keeping your dog in the constant half-starved state really just isn't healthy. She's hungry BECAUSE of the THK too high... The more you feed carbs, the hungrier she is going to be, regardless. The weightloss isn't any different than if you fed a kid mac n cheese everyday. Sure, they lose weight and they LOVE it and it fills them up. But it isn't healthy. Even if it "isn't long" it still does damage.

I'd do this:
Reduce the HK by a third first. Up the Core by 1/6 and the RAW by 1/6 to make up for it.
Split the meals/proportions this way:
Feed RAW and a quarter of HK in the morning.
Feed CORE and the 3/4th of HK in the evening.
This way, she is getting protein that she can use during the day, enough carbs for daily functions. CORE for regular feeding, and the rest of her HK portion for the night-time, so she doesn't wake you up at 3 yowling for another meal. Low metabolism when she sleeps, means sugar gets processed slowly, lasts longer.

If you were to only up the RAW, her proportions would be off, and she could gain wait again with the amount of carbs her body is getting.

So same proportions, but leveled out so your protein/carb ratio is better suited for her needs.

She shouldn't "act" hungry. Eating her food with vigor is NOT a sign of being hungry. It is a sign of a happy dog with a dose of respect for the food, as well as a healthy appetite.

If, by chance, she gets hungry "stomach growls", then you can up the HK to 1/2 of what you are feeding, instead of 1/3. In response to that, you should also up the RAW.