So we have been treating kenzi with 12cc vetsulin twice a day for 10 days now. She's in currently for her glucose curve. Leaving her at the vet was quite the spectacle. She cried, tried to pull the vet tech down, and in general had a panic attack. I expect a grumpy puppy upon her return. Two things have been hurting my head since this started:

1. Diet. Going through cancer with keno carbs have been the enemy because carbs create sugar which feeds cancer. In my head for diabetes the same carbs that create sugar should be bad, but looking at other people going through diet research for diabetic dogs carbs are coming up as "good" as they carry insulin. The initial thinking when you have a dog with high blood sugar is the cut the thing that makes the sugar that the dog can't process, but others say to give them the carbs that makes the sugar because the carbs carry the insulin that manages the sugar. And my head wants to explode. She's been eating Dr Harvey's Paradigm with keno since the diagnosis. I was hoping today would give some clue as to if the diet is doing anything. At least until I ran across information about thing two.

2. Intact or incorrectly spayed females. Kenzi has a botched spay. She has a red heat (bleeds) and a silent heat (no bleeding) plus false pregnancies. It is highly likely an intact or poorly spayed female that has fluctuating hormones can be managed. This is something I have seen pop up with others who have had issues with it and the insulin meds website suggests spaying due to progesterone interference with the drug.

So now I'm in a spot I'm not sure what to think. Do I continue with the low carb diet, or switch? Is it all going to be moot because she has heat cycles? Obviously gotta wait for her curve results but ugh...what a pain.

That "carbs carry the insulin needed" does not make sense. Do you have any references for that?

Unless that's referring to glycemic index?

So im probably wrong but i thought the issue is starches not carbs. And yes i know all starches are carbs but not all carbs are starches.

I do not have a reference for the statement of carbs carry insulin. It's just something that has popped up several times in my various research. I think a more accurate statement would be that carbs even out insulin injections. The Vetsulin site states "Foods high in complex carbohydrates and fiber help glucose to be released evenly in your dog's body." From what I've seen so far the recommendation is 25-30% carbs. (I'm feeding under 10% total carbs, I believe) Under 5% of those carbs should be starchy carbs, so you are on track with starches being an issue. When doing low carb for cancer it's the same thing. You don't give high sugar/starch carbs. No peas or carrots. Fat is the enemy in diabetes but can be good in cancer patients.

So according to my vet yesterday's glucose curve went well and she doesn't want to change anything. We will return to do it again in 30 days. As a reminder Kenzi read 410 at 3:30pm 10 days prior.

6:45 12 units Vetsulin followed by breakfast
7:45 306
9:45 223
11:45 174
1:45 207

For reference, a normal diabetic dog runs between 60-100. A diabetic dog should not be brought down to a normal dog range because they could crash quickly and you wouldn't have any time to try to bring your dog's sugar back up before it was too late. The goal is to stay under 250 for as much of the day as possible.

Being a half day curve that ended before the time of day in which we had the original high reading leaves me questioning how well the insulin really is working. I am considering buying a meter and doing a home curve so I can see where she really is at before it's meal time again since she is still several hours from the next injection at the end of this curve.

The insulin we are currently on is Vetsulin which doesn't dose evenly. It will bring glucose down fairly fast then taper off. A switch to Novolin that doesn't do that could potentially change the food needs and work better with very low carb diets I think. While she seems to be tracking relatively even I guess right now it will be necessary for me to monitor her when she hits her next heat cycle to see if she rings true to what has been stated about regulating unspayed females. Stress can also play a role in what reading a vet office may get so a home curve over a full day span is really necessary for a true picture.

Welp. If someone has to have a diabetic dog, better someone with your tenacity, willingness to understand and monitor. Still... You have my sympathies on needing to do this. Glad her numbers looked good at the vet.

I did a search on the site and didn't see where too many of our members have had to deal with diabetes even though it is a growing issue for dogs. Chances are eventually others may have the same challenge I am so figured it best to do some documentation in case someone else is met with the same thing and has questions, or if someone else comes along with more knowledge than I and can shed some light or offer some advice then it's got a place to go that can be found.

Luckily we haven't had the cataract issues to the level that others have. I'm hoping catching it early and taking care of it will keep us from having to deal with any of that.

My luck shadow will end up diabetic. He already has pannus, pra, and hip issues.

So if you got a glucose monitor does it work the same as in people. I just wonder because of the one that you stick on and lasts 14 days

I don't believe the stick on monitors will work for dogs. The monitors have to be calibrated for dogs to read them and I don't know if you can do open calibrations on those, though it would be super handy to not have to prick her and then give her shots on top of it, which has been my hesitation on doing the at-home monitoring very much. Some folks do with their dogs just the same as people where they will test their glucose and then apply dosage based on the reading rather than a set dosage every time. Some dogs need higher doses at night for some reason too. Some of the hand-held monitors come with a setting in them that works for dogs, but you have to make sure that you use it. The human setting will give you some wonky numbers if used on a dog.

I have worried about Kye. He's on the pred which will wreck his system eventually and he is very difficult to keep weight off of. Kenzi's body is basically wearing out, especially with having the botched spay that can cause insulin issues, and we think that is ultimately what caused her to become diabetic. Things just happen with age and stop working properly. Kye I just have issues with weight on. He's got so many health issues it's hard to do what is needed to manage his weight as I normally would with exercise and he's already restricted on diet. When I get the hand-held monitor I may do a curve on him out of curiosity and to have a baseline in case things ever change. I wish I had a pre-diabetes baseline on kenzi.

So im gonna do some research but if a human monitor can be calibrated for dogs then the stick on one hypothetically could use a ...(i want to say port but it seems wrong) of the non stick on variety. The trick would be to flash the chip without messing with the blue tooth. I wonder if freestyle libre is open source.

@twisterII so freestyle libre is dog compatible https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094557/&ved=2ahUKEwibqsbL3bfrAhVYG80KHZQCAZIQFjAEegQIDhAK&usg=AOvVaw1dBZU-sXIJmV_-_Ij6n3Ld

that is interesting. Now I'm going to have to dig around and see if anyone has managed to do this outside a study. Man, that would be handy. Bet it would be pricey. Hmm....

Videos all over youtube on both the dog and the cat. You do have to keep the area shaved.

Seems they are best used for a two curve and to get night curves but not a viable option for long term use. A few people in another group have used them and they struggled with accuracy. Some vets seem to be challenged getting them calibrated. I have to keep kenzi's shoulders shaved where I give her her current shots because I can't give them well through her fur. Darn dog got skinny enough it's hard to get a hold of her skin well enough to shoot under it.

Sorry to hear what your going through. I haven't logged on in a while but saw your post and thought id chime in as I went through something similar but far worse with a prior husky and its not an easy thing to endure but something we do for the love of our dogs.

For starters, do not have your vet do a BG curve at the vets hospital. Your dog will undergo stress and anxiety and probably not finish his food as well as not get the exercise or walk he may during the 12 hours he spends with your vet. I have done a tremendous amount of testing with my current diabetic Husky and have noticed 50-100 point peaks due to anxiety and stress which at a vets office might be compensated by overdosing as well as an inaccurate curve due to the stress eventually stabilizing. You should try to do a BG curve at home, you'll get great advise at the K9diabetes forum. Im on there and many others whom are dealing with a diabetic dog.

I have a writeup on the forum about the freestyle libre sensors. Sadly a dogs blood plasma is different than a humans so in some cases there will be an offset error. Funny thing is one of my libre sensors was within 15 points of the AT2 meter and another sensor was off by 100 points. Its a good idea to try it and then compare it to a AT2 meter to gauge the accuracy.

As to cancer, depending on where and the mitotic rate, you can sometimes manage it with raw diet, or natural foods ie fish, veggies and other real ingredients not starch binding dog food that most of us give our dogs. My prior husky had 3 simultaneous malignant tumors, diabetes, arthritis and was given 3 months to live, she ended up living for another 2.5 years as I had her on the raw diet, gave her tons of fish oil and colloidal silver, all of which are natural supplements to boost the immune system.

I would not get hung up on carbs, they are necessary even for diabetic and cancer enduring dogs as its fuel for the body, I think your on the right path by keeping it below 30%. The most important thing is to manage the diabetes by keeping your overall sugar levels manageable such that it doesn't influence and hence feed the cancer with excess sugar.

Good luck with hang in there.

Kenzi has her second vet curve and check in tomorrow. Going to recheck her liver enzymes since they were not good when we first started. I have the Advocate Pet Test to do home curves to compare to her stressed vet curve. I am also thinking about changing her food. The Dr harvey's is proving unreliable to get shipped at times. Prefer to keep her raw but other premixes are either over the carb rating I want or the one that meets the preferred carbs is as unreliable to get a hold of as the Dr harvey's. Still thinking on that situation. I simply don't have time to home mix anymore.

Started her on a B12 vitamin to hopefully help with hind end weakness. She isn't super weak in the rear but just weak enough that she can no longer make the jump onto the bed. That doesn't bother her in the summer when it's hot but come winter it frustrates her when she can't get in bed and then she sits at the base and makes a squeaking noise. She's also on Bilberry for her eyes.

Into the vet today. She's been running high numbers the last little while. I curved here at the house on monday and she was high all day and only dropped down to 345 at her lowest which is where I would prefer her highest point be if she has to even go that high. Think we are dealing with an infection somewhere. Teeth or ears likely. They are going to do a blood panel and check things over. I had a different vet for keno and I liked him. Not as sure about this gal. Vets often don't get deep training on Diabetes so they just chase numbers around by doing curves often and changing dosing. Since we were fine on the lower dose and regulated through the summer and nothing has changed other than weather it stands to reason something else is going on and just changing insulin dose is not going to solve everything. Weather can be a factor but shouldn't swing it that hard. She had a heat cycle back in October and BG was wild during that which I expected but had hoped things would settle after the cycle passed.

Kidneys seem to be a big issue with diabetes. My diabetic cat ended up with kidney failure and died not long after the kidney issues. They think it started as a uti. At that point i thought that poppins had been running on borrowed time for several years. He was almost 23 when he died.

So my diabetes background is a cat and my mother and from what i have seen and heard, a little nothing infection or open wound that wouldn't effect a healthy person or animal can kill one with diabetes. My mom found a specialist and was able to manage poppins for years. I realize not everyone has that option, including me right now. For me its less about the money and more about distance but not everyone has parents or relatives that they can call.

Im assuming you have her on a low starch diet. I just wonder if any vets in your area have a focus on diabetic dogs. Of course if its an infection the best thing is to get it clear as quick as possible.

She has an infection in her right ear which didn't surprise me. We've battled ear issues for years. Going off potatoes fixed the issue mostly but the diabetes has ramped it back up. The gunk in her ears used to be pretty easy to keep cleaned out but the gunk since the diabetes got started is much harder to get out. They did a deep clean and a lanolin pack with medication down in the ear. Recheck, and recuve, in two weeks. I don't think my vet has much experience with diabetes. For some reason the idea that an infection could cause her numbers to jump didn't compute with the vet. She said she hadn't seen any evidence of that when there's literally dozens of papers that have been written about glucose response to infection and the body's immune system. I will have to go to MU to find any form of specialist and the university costs a fortune. For the most part though as long as they are willing to run the tests I ask them to when I ask them to do it I don't particularly need a specialist. Her white blood cell count was good despite the ear infection and tarter on her teeth so that is good. At this point I'm more worried about the fact that the vet wants to ramp her insulin up to 15 units and if her numbers start to drop as the infection clears up she could dip dangerously low. Contemplating about going back to 13 units until the infection is clear.

I have a friend here who has diabetes - well, actually more than just one but ... he's lost both feet to infections at different times and he still gets around better than a lot of us at roughly the same age.
When we were talking about my diabetic brother coming out here last year, his comment was to take the doctors comments as suggestions and adjust the insulin as needed - 'course, I think that's a lot easier done with a human.

It's easier said than done when they have the power to not fill the insulin prescription. Though I'm not above lying to her. lol. Yeah, sure I totally have been giving her those 20 units of insulin you said to. ;-) But she's pretty good about getting that expensive curve scheduled every two weeks which is going to turn into a harsh talk if that continues. I'm not paying $100 for half of a curve when I can do a whole curve at home for $2. I just can't do it. Especially with a $450 dental cleaning looming out there I don't think I can safely avoid as that could be messing with her numbers as well. Vets seem good about giving quotes and estimates so a person can prepare for the expense but not good about finding a way around the expense in the first place. I like the clinic as a whole but this vet is starting to bug me. But she hasn't pestered me about vaccines so there is that silver lining.

The vet hospital i go to sometimes annoys me. Mostly because im the anomly that can afford vet care. Sometimes i think alot of it has to do with most of their practice being livestock and ranchers dont even look at their dogs as pets and everything has a cost tradeoff. So going has become a if i dont specifically ask them to do something they dont recommend it even when i think Sometimes they should. I have another vet ive taken shadow too that i really like but durango is a 2 hour each way drive and that office costs alot more

A jump from 13 units to 15 flattened the curve but didn't really drop her much. Instead of jumping up around 600 we are jumping up to mid 400s, which is a good change, but her lows aren't dropping any really, so he wants to up her to 18 units. That worries me because that is a huge increase. It could either drop her way too much or cause her body to rebound and over-produce glucose to fight with the huge onslaught of insulin we are giving her.

So is there a vet around you that specializes in diabetes. Alot of times the specialist can do the appointment over the phone after they get your records. Its really bad when your not sure if your vet is handling things correctly. Sometimes you need a second opinion.

just the university and they are crazy expensive. They don't do anything over the phone. It'll be $100 consultation to go over what is happening and then another $100 for a general check up and then they'll want to do their own curve which they charge $150 for and then they will want to come back in for another $100 consultation. While some universities are a good way to save costs on things MU is not one of those.

I don't think we are dealing with something just changing insulin around is going to fix. Changing it might mask it though. I think there's something underlying going on. Could be the bilberry supplement or could be her teeth. I took her off the bilberry to see if that changes the morning spike. If she goes back to a bowl curve then I will know to drop the supplement at least.