So, Nutmeg is at around 9 months now. She was a stray found wandering and ended up in the pound at 3 months old. (read: didn't care where she poo'd). She lived in the kennel for a month (read: still didn't care where she poo'd). We adopted her and within 4 days began showing serious signs of parvo--diarrhea, vomiting etc. (read: she couldn't help where she poo'd).

At this point, I have a neighbor coming over mid-day to walk her until her bladder and bowels can handle us being gone 10 hours in a work day. She slowly started getting there later and later in the day, extending each week by a half hour until she was finally making it from 8am to 4pm. A month goes by, and she ends up with either whipworms or giardia. Diarrhea again. (read: we're back to her not being able to help where she poo's).

We battle with this for 6 weeks (read: a long time goes by with her repeatedly getting diarrhea in her crate during our workday and she seems to cease caring whether she "goes" in her crate or not.)

I finally figure out after treating successfully for whipworms and giardia that she has an intolerance to wellness puppy and switch her to Nutro Lamb and Rice. Great stools, no excuse to go in her crate anymore. Things seemed ok for a couple weeks, she seemed to only have crate poo accidents (hardly ever pee accidents) on Mondays--like a separation anxiety--so I started her on a time release Calm Aid that I give her when we leave for work. She doesn't freak out when we leave, she complains a little, but lays down and deals.

So here's where we're at: We leave at 7:30am-8am M-F. Our roommate had been getting home at around 4pm, 4:30 and walking her. She now isn't getting home until more like 5:45. Still, the dog has made it 10 hours in the past. She was only having problems on Mondays for a few weeks. Now, this week, it's every day. EVERY DAY we've had to wash out her crate, give her a bath etc.

Nutmeg was also on a starvation bend during the time she was making it 10 hours and was eating MAYBE once a day. In the past few days, she has finally started eating her 2 cups of kibble in the AM, and 2 in the PM. FINALLY.

So, THOUGHTS? The dog SERIOUSLY does not care if she poo's in her crate. She PLAYS in it. LAYS in it. We feed her in her crate. We sometimes leave the empty bowl in the crate to discourage her from going. We've partitioned the crate before so that she has no choice but to lay in her filth and SHE DOES NOT CARE.

My husband and I are at our wit's end. We even sent a friend of ours for over an hour ROUND TRIP tonight to make sure the dog was walked before 5, and she called me and told me the dog had gone in her crate. Stools are firm now. No diarrhea. No excuse. We're going to have new roommates renting out our basement apartment in May, but during April we won't have a roommate to walk her before we get home at 6, and our neighbor isn't available anymore. And remember, the dog HAS made it 10 hours. She just doesn't seem to CARE if she does or not.

i want to say that i wish i really knew what to tell you but what i can tell you is it might be her way of telling you she does not like being left that long! Sierra can hold her pee for up to 10hrs and has in the past, ours are never left longer then 8-9hrs a day and do FINE with no messes, this is also uncrated with run of the lower level of the house on tile floors. NOW if we come home feed and walk them and then we leave to go out at night to dinner, or a movie, or shopping and are gone for like 3-4hrs sierra will pee on the floor! we KNOW she can hold it all day long but god forbid we leave at night after being gone all day she has a problem with that and tells us so by peeing in the same spot on tile floors all most every time. we have smartened up and now leave a towel in that spot and she either holds it or will still pee there.... its a behavior thing at this point....

Ugh. Is Doggie Day Care an option, or hiring a dog walker?

Yeah, problem is that we work about an hour away with traffic, and work 8 hours a day. Our new roommates plan to take her out and play with her etc. They love dogs and want to walk her and SHOULD have the schedule to help us in the evenings, but you never know.

Any doggie daycare in our area (which still isn't really in our area.....they're still a heck of a drive for us) was $35+ a day. We simply cannot afford that. I was paying our neighbor $20/week for midday walks, but she's not available anymore. We put an ad on Craigslist that we wanted a dog walker or a private retiree or someone who could come walk her etc and, to be honest, the people who responded to the ad were either WAAAAAY too expensive or not people I would want to give a house key to.

So, hopefully our roommates moving in in May will help alleviate the problem. Til then, anything else we can try????

Perhaps try working with her SA behaviorally instead of medically? Try working with her to overcome the fact that you need to leave during the day. Desensitize her and let her know that yes you ARE coming back and NO it's nothing to freak out about.

Just a thought but what does she do when you leave her loose? Maybe not full house accessible loose but kitchen/living room/bedroom loose?

How much exercise does she get during the day? Is she exercised before you leave? Sometimes that can help with SA dogs. There are others methods of course... thunder shirts, DAP release.. You could also put a diaper on her. That's more of a bandaid though. Dogs won't defecate with something covering their bottoms. It's weird to them. Although she might eat it off. Mine probably would.

Regardless I would look into more of working with her SA rather than trying to crate train her. She's obviously knows not to go in the house but instead of being destructive or self destructive... she's defecating.

Thanks--good ideas. She used to be exercised in the morning before we left for work, but I just suffered a serious back injury that I'm waiting to get surgery on, so I can't hardly walk 50 feet let alone the couple miles every morning I was walking. That may be the key. As for leaving her out, no. She cannot even be out unsupervised, even in a small area. While she's getting better as she's getting older, she still eats (chews on and destroys) anything in sight if given enough time unsupervised. Blankets, socks, shoes--anything that looks vaguely interesting. I don't want to take the chance she'll ingest something that will hurt her.

We checked out thundershirts, but I guarantee she would turn that into shreds in minutes. She's a chewer and just loves to tear things apart for the sheer joy of it. Really--she seriously gets a kick out of it--will stand on whatever it is with a BIG smile and rip, rip, rip. We did get a BIG Dynobone and put that in her crate to chew happily away on when we leave. We did put up a camera at first when we were crate training her, and what we saw was that as soon as we were out the door she would lay down and nap. She stayed napping until around noon or 1pm, would be really active playing with her bone, pacing etc. Christy would come walk her, and put her back. She'd cry for about 15 minutes and then go back to napping. Around 4pm she'd wake up and start pacing in a frenzy and would be worked up until we came home.

She doesn't act out when we leave anymore (crying etc). She's usually laying down and resigned to her day. We don't make a big deal out of her--a simple "Bye Nut!" and toss a treat in her crate for her a few minutes before we leave.

The diaper idea is interesting, but she'd shred that too.

I think April will probably just be The Month From Hell, and we'll just all have to be miserable getting through it. After that, the young couple that's moving in to our basement apartment already love her and want to spend time with her in the afternoons. Hopefully I'll get surgery soon and be able to take her for her morning walks again. Maybe I can take some muscle relaxers and painkillers in the morning and just see if I can make it least 1/2 mile? I'm in a walking cast on my right leg from the pain in my lumbar, so it will be interesting :-) I'm game to try though.

What is DAP release?

Kristina brought up some great suggestions. I was wondering about leaving her loose too. Damn.

How much did she like the Dynabone? Was it a high value treat for her? What about a raw marrow bone or frozen peanut butter kongs? If you can partition the crate enough, perhaps she won't want to go where her high value treat is?

Treating the SA is also a good call. Have you seen desensitization training? Basically little by little start getting ready to go, but reverse it. Take a weekend day... pick up the keys and walk around with them. Then sit down for 5 mins. Then pick up the keys and get your coat, then sit down again. Pick up the keys, get your coat, go to the door. Then sit down. Keep moving father and farther along the progression until you leave for 15-30 mins at a time.

Also, how often does she chill in the crate while you are there during the day? Will she go in willingly on her own? Can you lock her in there for a few minutes while you're there? All these things will help, I think.

One other thing you might try... when does she get fed? If you can arrange her feeding times so that she won't have to go during those 10 hours a day that she is crated, that really might help too.

Such a sucky situation! Good luck and keep us posted

So sorry to hear that. I remember all to well Frankie's days in the crate. He was fine with the crate, hated being left alone. No matter what I did, he peed in the crate when left alone. I would take him to the dog park for 2 hours and he would be sound asleep when I would leave. I only left him for up to 3 hours and sure enough, he was soaked. Although just the peeing was a great improvement from the destruction of the crates (he broke out of 2 crates and destroyed them). Now he's better because I have since moved in with my mom and she has a dog, so now he has company.
Since you are unable to walk her like you used to, have you considered trying a treadmill for exercise? I could never get Frankie on it, but I know others that use it and swear by it.

I should have kept my mouth closed... came home to pee on the floor only gone 7hrs


Getting out the mop.

Thanks. Yes, the dynobone is a high value toy, but she'll crap right on it. *sigh*. Love the peanut butter kong bone idea. She will be entertained for at least an hour or more with that.

On the SA training, we did all of that months ago and she did really well. When we first got her it sounded like we were murdering a wolf when we walked out the door. She would bite the crate, dig, scream, etc. Doing the quick crate and come back trips (5 min, 10 etc) helped. We do crate her while we're around in the house too just for training purposes. She cries sometimes but is getting better. We just have to outwait her and tough love to ignore her while crated. We do wait until she STOPS crying to let her back out and praise her for being quiet and calm.

She does like her crate, though-she'll go into it all on her own, carry toys in etc.

You bring up a good point though. I bet I can adjust how much I'm feeding her so she gets the bulk of it at night now that she's eating consistently.

friesianet wrote:

What is DAP release?

This: http://www.entirelypets.com/dapdog.html?gclid=CMXy7NLFxacCFQat7QodpT9bDA

We used to use it in the "recovery" section of the Humane Society I worked at. Didn't always 100% work for all dogs, but you could fell there was less stress in the air.

Really just sounds like SA. Especially how you said she'd frantically begin to pace towards the end of the day. Have you tried playing music or leaving a TV on throughout the day? She is young though and I know you're not able to exercise her a lot at the moment but I think that would really help. I guess April isn't too far away.

jbealer wrote:

I should have kept my mouth closed... came home to pee on the floor only gone 7hrs


Getting out the mop.

Darn that sucks. I know your pain well. Especially the anxiety of walking in the door and doing "the sniff test" to know if you're going to be in for a night of crate washing and dog bathing!

Well, in a lovely turn of events, the dog decided to make me even more miserable with her crate habits than normal last night. On Thursday nights, my husband and I work late. Very late. Usually 12+ hour days. So, we make sure someone walks the dog at ~6PM and again around 9:30 or 10pm. Nutmeg's "last walk for the night" is generally around 11pm and she makes it to about 7am without a problem. We haven't had an "overnight" accident for a LONG time. MONTHS.

We got home unusually early for us (for a Thursday) at a little after 10pm. We let her out of her crate for some "chill" time, I medicate the cat, the ferret, feed the bearded dragon and sat down and watched a little TV so Nut could unwind with us. I had left "dinner" for Nut outside her crate and our roommate gave it to her earlier in the night. I don't know when, but there was still about 1/3 left over sitting in her bowl.

I walked the dog at 11pm and Nut came back in and slept on the floor while we finished our TV show. Crated the dog, went to bed around midnight and I get woken up by the dog crying at 2am--not because she had to go, but because she had already GONE and Queen Spoiled Dog would like her Servant to emerge from their restful slumber and to clean her crate of the poo and pee that ensued. I could have killed the dog with my glare alone. I put on her leash and held her while I crawled into her crate and cleaned up her mess. We use Nature's Miracle spray on the bottom of her crate to discourage her from going in there. Put the dog away and she restfully slept until 6:30 or so. Not so much for me, as I don't do well being woken up in the middle of the night, but at least the DOG had a good night after that.

Sorry for the rant, but our wonderful dog seriously frustrates me sometimes. I guarantee we're coming home tonight to a night of poo cleaning. And we just found out last night that our current roommate is moving out sooner than we thought, so no more "dog coverage" until May.

So I've been thinking. She was on a hunger strike for 3-4 weeks, only eating enough kibble to survive. She's FINALLY starting to eat again on a regular basis. I was thrilled, but now we're dealing with the consequences. We can't modify how long we're gone to work, but I'm going to see if I can move our shift forward so we at least get home earlier. It's still 9 1/2 to 10 hours, that just doesn't change, but hopefully the schedule shift might help if we're getting home "earlier". Additionally, I'm going to try just feeding her a 1/2 cup of food in the morning and feeding her the other 3 1/2 cups at night. Since she was ONLY eating if she was locked in her crate for hours and hours on end and ended up being bored, we had recently been leaving her food bowl in to eat while we were gone or overnight. She was literally ONLY eating after being crated for long hours and nothing better to do. Now that she's KIND OF eating when we put the food in her crate, now that she knows nothing better is coming down the pike worth waiting for, we'll start removing her food bowl again so we can regulate exactly how much she eats and from what time to what time.

It does seem silly that I'm complaining that the dog is not regulating her bowels when I've essentially been letting her have free choice food while we're gone <dumb, smacks head moment>. We had been doing the whole "if she doesn't eat in 10 minutes, that's IT!" and removing the bowl, but then she was so sick, underweight, picky, and had the worst appetite for a while that we started leaving it in for her, just trying to get her to eat her new food. NO MORE! I think she has enough of an appetite now that she'll do ok with the 10 minute rule again. Hopefully adjusting how much we feed her in the AM and adjusting our schedules to get home earlier will fix this.

ok im gonna skip a ton of stuff there and jump to one thing are you saying she gets 4 cups of food a day?????? im sure i missed what you are feeding her but that sounds like your main issue. my boy gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup at night of TOTW and our girl gets 3/4 cup in the morning and again at night of her weight lose food. we get 2 small/normal sized poos a day from them

Not that this adds a whole lot to the thread, but...

Have you considered maybe trying to feed her raw? I notice with Nikolai, that he goes from 2 poos a day on kibble to just one, and that that poo is tiny, like, cat poo sized. Might be easier to clean up. Also, it seems to go through him a little quicker than kibble, so on days he eats raw at night, he poos the next morning and is done for the day...

And, FWIW, I totally think you're on to something with the timed meals. Nikolai is a super picky eater, too - we give him about 30 minutes with the bowl down. If it's not gone, we pick it up and try again at the next meal time. We also spice up his food a bit with a raw egg and a pinch of shredded cheese, or some canned food, or a little chicken broth... he seems to like those modifications over plain, dry kibble.

jbealer wrote:

ok im gonna skip a ton of stuff there and jump to one thing are you saying she gets 4 cups of food a day?????? im sure i missed what you are feeding her but that sounds like your main issue. my boy gets 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup at night of TOTW and our girl gets 3/4 cup in the morning and again at night of her weight lose food. we get 2 small/normal sized poos a day from them

Totally ditto - here... Nikolai only eats about ~2 cups of kibble + mix ins on days he's doing kibble. He was (and still is) pretty skinny, but he's been gaining about a pound a month on this regimen.

What kind of food is Nut eating?

I'm gonna third the amount of food comment. Koda (a 60 lb male-- very big for a husky) gets 2 cups of TOTW a day. Hailey (a 45 lb female) gets about 1 1/2 cups a day. The type of food you have her on could be helping.

I'm also going to point out that she was CRYING because she pooed herself. I don't know if you realize the significance of that. It means that her pooing during the day issues are almost definitely SA. She doesn't do it because "she doesn't care." She does it because she is stressed, angry and anxious.

Where is her crate at night? Is it in your room? Have you tried over-the-counter calming aids?

she's definitely getting way too much food, embry (54lbs) and zoey (45lbs) both get 2 cups of taste of the wild a day

I believe she said Nut is eating Nutro. Nutro's feeding recommendations are probably on the higher side than the other higher quality brands. Keep that in mind. It may even be more if she's on a puppy formula.

I agree with Tori about the crate crying.

Nutmeg is now on Nutro Lamb and Rice. Thanks to Huskyluv, I got sample packets of Nupro to spice up her food and give her some more interest and it helped.

As for the amount, that's been guided by our vet, who is very knowledgeable on the breed. He's been seeing her every month and she was VERY under weight for her age due to being hit with Parvo, then giardia and whipworms. We were feeding 2 cups a day of Wellness Puppy and he told us to up it to 3. A month went by and he said she wasn't gaining enough weight and up it to 4. He explained that her caloric output was requiring it for her to catch up. I was also walking her a couple miles a day at the time. Now, less activity and she's JUST getting to a decent weight. Looking at her, I can't cut her back just yet, but will be soon. When she was self-regulating with free choice, she was only choosing to eat 2 cups a day max anyway.

Her stools were soft on wellness puppy (grain free--we feed our cats and ferrets grain free too) but they firmed right up on Nutro Lamb and Rice puppy. I'm about to transition her to an adult dog food and was CONSIDERING Orijen 6 fish as her "final food" for life. I ordered a sample bag but I guess they are redoing their formula and it's not available right now.

Does anyone know if Orijen 6 fish tends to be better at producing less waste? I'm sure the rice is not helping with copious waste production. I've considered raw, but I'm not going to do that at this time.

Koda wrote:

I'm also going to point out that she was CRYING because she pooed herself. I don't know if you realize the significance of that. It means that her pooing during the day issues are almost definitely SA. She doesn't do it because "she doesn't care." She does it because she is stressed, angry and anxious.

Good point. I did notice the difference in behavior. And I'm so GLAD to see her caring for a difference. I do think the crate poo'ing midday is more SA than food, but the food situation isn't helping. If she has less in her, I think she may be less likely to poo. Hopefully a work schedule change will help too. If we leave early in the AM when she's still groggy and get back earlier, it could be better. I think it's a many layered problem and you all are definitely helping me straighten it out. Thanks! It's great having a sounding board.

Koda wrote:

Where is her crate at night? Is it in your room?

We have a small upper level of our house, so she's in our living room, where we spend the most time. Normally nighttime is fine, she falls asleep on her bed by the TV and we wake her up and crate her when we go to bed. She can see our bedroom door from her crate.

Koda wrote:

Have you tried over-the-counter calming aids?

Yes--I put that in my original post, but I tend to type alot (sorry) so it's easily missed. I even put something in the product review section about it. It does take the edge off. I do see a difference in her on it. Wondering if Rescue Remedy might be better.

I'm a huge fan of Rescue Remedy. That has worked WONDERS for my cat, who pretty much freaked out the day we brought Nikolai home. We've also given a little bit of it to Nikolai (mixed it with some yogurt/peanut butter and treats in his Kong for when we were having house guests, or when our schedule would be changing a bit - he's never had a problem.

arooroomom wrote:

friesianet wrote:

What is DAP release?

This: http://www.entirelypets.com/dapdog.html?gclid=CMXy7NLFxacCFQat7QodpT9bDA

We used to use it in the "recovery" section of the Humane Society I worked at. Didn't always 100% work for all dogs, but you could fell there was less stress in the air.

I missed this before---how cool! Probably better than Rescue Remedy. Maybe I'll try it! Thanks!!!

arooroomom wrote:

Have you tried playing music or leaving a TV on throughout the day?

Yup! We leave all kinds of stuff on for her--sometimes TV, just hooked up the radio yesterday and left it on talk radio all day. Unfortunately, we live at the end of the line, power-wise, and have brownouts almost daily. We came home last night to find out that the radio had been off for 7 hours due to a power failure.