Love 'em? Hate 'em? Consider this thread your soapbox for helping the rest of us to understand.

...I will be back when I have some time to really put my thoughts down in a way that makes sense... right now, I have a job to do.

Not a fan of their training methods at all and I have tried some techniques which totally did not work with my dogs. I know what works for some may not work for others and I've tried both positive reinforcement style like Victoria Stillwell and Cesar Milan's style and have consistently gotten better and faster results with the positive reinforcement methods.

I know some do, but I don't buy into the pack leader and dog psychology thing, no offense folks. I am a strong leader who rules without a strong hand so I prefer gentler more positive training that I would feel comfortable having a child do. That's just me.

I am completely against the whole "dominate" idea of Cesar's, not only because dogs don't view us the way they do other dogs but also because of how dangerous it can be. There aren't "don't attempt these techniques at home" type messages on his show for no reason. Never see disclaimers like that on Stillwell's show.

Now my hubby on the other hand is a huge CM fan and thinks he's the greatest, and he thinks Victoria Stillwell doesn't have a clue. We've had many an argument over CM and VS training styles, in the end we just agree to disagree.

I don't like how everything is about dominance with CM. That's something that really irks me to no end. Dog is humping? Dominance. Dog bites you? Dominance. Dog pees in the house? Dominance. Dog is barking? Dominance. ARGH.

When i'm at work i'm in control of sometimes up to 60-70 large dogs. I have incorporated a lot of CM way of being that really helps me be in control of the dogs. I don't believe in always walking out the door first, walking with them at your side and all the other crazy things people tell everyone to do so they're "Alpha." There's another word I hate right there...

There's a lot of methods I use that go across the whole board of training techniques and I don't think there are many people who just use one technique... Could we possibly merge these threads into a general training style topic?

I really like Cesar but I think it really depends on the dog. I don't use his methods with Reiko, because they just don't work very well. Every thing with Reiko has to be positive or else he gets very upset.

My lab on the other hand is a whole different ball game. He is a VERY dominant dog, to the point that if my boyfriend even tickles me, he will do anything he can to separate us. Cesar's techniques worked very well for Zeke, every one is amazed as to how different of a dog he is every time they see him. He is increasingly more polite, doesn't have to police every thing/ one/ dog, doesn't have to bark at any one that happens to walk by. He was getting to the point where he was starting to get aggressive, even with us. I had tried positive methods with him, but he was still getting worse and worse. He's still a working progress, but much much less of a head ache.

Any way I think it depends on the person, and the dog.

I've had some luck with cesars methods but i dont "dominate" by any means. i dont have a husky that pulls (most of the time--when prey drive does not come into play). she responds really well to having to work for everything she gets. my lab/pitt mix is very emotionally sensitive and slightly fearful of certain things so cesars methods do NOT work with him. mainly because i don't know what i'm doing 100% and i'll gladly admit that. has anyone heard of "Natural Dog Training"?

I have very little first hand knowledge of CM's techniques and methodology, but from what I understand, he works from a "Dominance Theory" paradigm. The dog will behave when you "lead the pack"...? CM fans/proponents, what does this mean? Be calm and assertive? Be clear and consistent in your actions and expectations for your dog? If so, then yes, that's good. I've read articles about his use of force and or "flooding" fearful dogs. In my opinion, those things will do FAR more harm than good. When I stop to ponder how popular CM is and how widely available his works and endorsed products are, it makes me sad... people must follow his advice because of his alluring title of being the "Dog Whisperer" which implies a certain gentleness, which when you dig a little deeper seems to be completely false. At the end of the day, I think he's in it for the image, the Hollywood cache, and ultimately the money - NOT the welfare and well being of dogs and their people.

As for the Monks - I've listened to the audio book for "How to be your Dog's Best Friend" and was absolutely horrified by their section on how best to hit ("correct") your dog, how to stop your dog from whining/house-soiling/being fearful in a car (by basically surprising them and abusing them), getting overweight dogs in shape by having them run alongside a car ("roadwork"), etc. I think their ideas of dominance and being a pack leader by sternly correcting and or alpha rolling are sort of crazy... they might work for some people and some dogs, but it also seems like a great way to get bitten, train your dog not to warn before escalating to a full bite, and overall, their techniques would cause all kinds of damage to the bond that people have with their pets.

I even have some first hand experience with how trainers who use the MoNS methods work - pinch collars and choke chains, "stern" "firm" corrections, and physically forcing, or "making" the dog do what you want it to do without reward or a treat (just because YOU are the leader and said DO IT, therefore the dog should DO it) is a recipe for disaster. My dog went through an evaluation, observation of one class, and a week's worth of preparatory homework for working with a facility who ascribes to this... in that time, my dog didn't eat for four full days, puked everything back up on the fifth day, then puked again when we returned one more time. He wasn't his happy, laid back, charming self - his ears were back, his tail down - he was scared and nervous... not "dominant" like the trainer had said over and over. We discontinued "training" with this place after giving their ideas fair consideration, because honestly, we were worried about our dog and ourselves. No one ended up happy in that scenario.

Some good resources I frequently like to pass on about Dominance Theory and Negative Reinforcement styles of training (punishing bad behavior) are:

The Dominance Controversy
The Dominance Theory
Why Won't Dominance Die?

...I guess my really short answer to people who train this way and believe in "dominating" or showing their dogs "who's boss" is: if you have to resort to verbal or physical punishment (sorry, "corrections") for your dogs' behavior, you've already lost the battle. As the "smarter" species with opposable thumbs, it is your responsibility to find ways to keep your dog out of trouble, re-direct them to better behaviors and ways of being, and ultimately set your dog up for success a long and happy life.

The following is a page from a FAQ of another forum I'm on, I think it's really good.

Why is Dominance Theory Outdated
The short answer: The theory on dominance made popular by the Monks of New Skete was based on incomplete data from a study done on wolves from different family groups being held in captivity. It was not done on wild wolves. It was not done on an actual wolf pack, which is a family unit (dam, sire, pups). According to one biologist, this study was akin to using the concentration camps of Germany and Poland to study natural human behavior.

The conclusions drawn were, as a result, wildly inaccurate.

Also, we humans tend to anthropomorphize our companion animals, which can get us into a lot of trouble. From Sue Ailsby's article on Dominance:

Quote :

It's really dangerous to assume we have ANY clue what a dog is thinking. Most of the time I can't tell what my husband is thinking, and he's the same species as I am and has, presumably, approximately the same senses as I have. When we use words describing what the dog is feeling, we are, at best, describing what WE think the dog is thinking, and, at worst, projecting our own feelings onto the dog. This is a slippery slope that brings us words like "blowing off" and "dominant" and "deliberate". If we humans stopped at pretending we knew what a member of an alien species was thinking, we'd only be deluding ourselves, but unfortunately we carry things further. We use words which make us angry. Which make us feel blown off, picked on, deliberately defied. And then we act on how those words make US feel.

Dr. Patricia McConnell, a leading animal behaviorist and ethologist, wrote an excellent series of articles on Dominance and canine behavior. Excellent reading that explains, quite plainly, why dominance-based training should not have a place in your dog's life.

* The Concept Formerly Described as "Dominance"
* The “D word” and Social Relationships in Dogs
* Dogs & “Dominance” –What’s a Person to Do?
* Dog Training and the “D” Word
* Leadership and Frolicking Lambs

More Information:

* Dominance and all that jazz - by Sue Ailsby
* Dominance Myth
* Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan
* Dog Training and the Myth of Alpha-Male Dominance