So... opinions, please.  Went for our walk, 3.4 miles today.  At first, Wayne and Ami on one side of the road, Z'ev and I on the other.  Over time Z'ev gradually moved closer and closer to Ami.  Then darted in, and, I  think, tried to nip Ami.  No growls, snarls but a yappy high pitched sort of arrr arrr.  Wayne didn't see it, Ami totally unaware, too busy charging along.

Second incident, well into our walk, Wayne wanted Ami to have some clean snow, went into a field, we were ahead and Z'ev turned to follow.  Ami was sitting in the snow and about 8 ft away,  Z'ev started this awful sort of totally arr arr.  In play bow position!  Wayne thought it was either fear or aggression, I thought it might be play given the body position.  Wayne was kneeling to get some of the dirty off Ami and Z'ev went over behind Wayne and proceeded to look at Ami from under Wayne's bent knee.

So... did he try to bite Ami or was her initiating play and just had an outlandish husky talk style?

I'm no expert Amy, but it sounds like play to me. I completely understand your need to be cautious, but I do think the sooner Ami and Z'ev can interact together, the better.

Amy, all too typical of many of my comments - it's not gonna be a lot of help but maybe a different perspective.

Sky can hold her own against Sasha - even given a 15-20 pound difference in weight, but she'd rather go hide in her crate than put up with Sasha's BS.  I *think* that Sasha's trying to play - but this is one girl who has no idea how to play, seriously -  Sky will be out front with Avalanche and when she comes in Sasha tries to nip at her.  Doesn't make contact but she'll nip at a hock.  Avalanche and Sky are forever pulling each others feet out from under the other one - similar behaviour.  I swear I've seen Avalanche pull a savat kick to kick Sky's feet away ...

hakelev sounds like he wants to play but isn't sure what's going to happen - for example, scrunching down in the crate when Ami was out.  He can't do anything so he immediately goes into defensive mode ...  One thing I've seen with Sky is that she's afraid to play with me - immediately turns belly up.  I think that's a result of someone back in her history cuffing her (she's also head shy) when she wanted to play - and we all know how they play!

Your second incident where Z'ev was vocalizing in play bow. All three of mine "talk" differently, as a generality - Avalanche barks, Sasha has a whine and Sky has a Husky talk but she mumbles. You know how Ami vocalizes and what she means (don't you?) You've heard Z'ev growl and you know what he means, but this, as you phrase it, arr arr (matey) would seem different enough that it doesn't sound like aggression and since he was facing her, it doesn't sound like fear - sounds like an invitation to play.

This might not work out right, but if Z'ev's tolerating the muzzle, I think I'd let them play and see what happens.  The only reason that I can think of that it might not work is if Ami really goes at Z'ev and you can't call her off and he feels like he's being attacked and can't defend himself.  (( There's a proper name for the muzzle aversion that result from that but at the moment I can't think of it. ))

Ugh... Jimmy, I would like nothing better. This is getting very wearing.. at least we've gone from stark terror and eating cujo to...I don't know what to call it. So far, to Wayne, say Z'ev has a severe case of the push me pull you's

I don't believe Ami would attack... I've seen him really rough with archer, archer gives a whine whimper... their safe word and Ami backs of immediately.  Will have to think of the logistics for tomorrow I I. The back yard, long line.  Today, Z'ev alone... got into the burdocks, and moves like a rocket... stomping on the long line was not an option for this slow poke

And check that the pool is frozen...

I totally understand Amy. I think the biggest thing, is that both you and Wayne are completely comfortable when you put Z'ev and Ami together cuz as you know, both dogs will feed off any tension/apprehension that you or Wayne are feeling. So with that being said, just keep taking little baby steps to get to that point of comfortability, but...as I've said, I really do think the sooner they interact together, the better for ALL...and I can almost guarantee a much speedier rehabilitation of Z'ev once everyone's apprehension is down and trust and bonding can be taken to the next level.

If ami didn't show any aversion to what z'ev did then I don't think z'ev meant anything by it. Most dogs I know have good intuition. I think they are ready to meet. Good luck!

The real issue for me is, if we go past Z'ev's tolerance, we will be set back big time. It was really kind of cute, seeing Z'ev peer at Ami from underneath Wayne's knee (he was kneeling with one leg bent and the other knee on the ground. Z'ev was just behind Wayne, and peeking through.

TwisterII wrote:

If ami didn't show any aversion to what z'ev did then I don't think z'ev meant anything by it. Most dogs I know have good intuition. I think they are ready to meet. Good luck!

Good point, Jenn...Ami didn't even notice! It was like Al described - Z'ev was going after Ami's rear hocks.

You just have to watch the body. If he's super stiff or slamming his feet on the ground rapidly, hair starts to draw up, just pull him away for a bit. When in doubt pull him away, treat, give him time to chill then go again.

So far, he just looks really interested, but skittish... ears forward, tail up and softly swaying, like Ami used to be on walks when he'd see a dog he wanted to play with. Right up until he gets too close, then he's barking, yowling, screaming, head outstretched, dancing and retreating. But... the last 2-3 days have become increasingly curious and less reactive.

Wayne really liked the pics of the "K's" hopefully, we'll get something close to that.

Clarity resounds.  No doubt in my mind that Z'ev wants tip attack Ami.  While definitely a fear response, there appears to be an element of human  posseviness also.  So I've revised my goals for the moment.  I would like to be able to walk Z'ev throughb the kitchen to his crate without drama.  I would like to SIT in the kitchen with both dogs quietly in down stay.  I would like to watch tv at night with both dogs in down stay.  Without drama.

Which means... both dogs need a rock solid down stay and place.  Got it.

Sigh.

Amy, here is 2 things you could look at and see if they will work so you can reach that goal....

http://sanityshome.blogspot.com/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html

I also am unsure if you know the place command so I will include it, and the link is from a rescue so maybe some other tips from looking at their site http://www.reboundhounds.org/place-command.html

Yup...down stay and place are the tasks at hand. We've never had a use for it with Ami till now, so makes 2 guys that need the training.

Thanx for the links.

You're welcome Hope they can help you!

Renee...I really have to laugh. Just read the first one. Two years ago, I had had it with Ami being rambunctious, demanding walk, play, bone, late at night while we tried to watch a movie. Siad "that's it!" Went and got a leash, hooked it to his collar, sat on it on the couch and watched my movie in peace. Did that for a few nights and...now, movie watching is a non-issue!

Annd...just read the 2nd article. It links to the thegooddog.net for their place training video. The exact one I watched maybe 2 weeks ago. I can't say enough about the training videos at the thegooddog.net. They even responded with a lengthy reply to my fb query!

Yep, the good dog is an excellent resource!

Ahhh...peace. At the moment. Husband is sleeping. Z'ev, for the moment is quiet in his crate. Ami and Archer are sleeping in the (blocked off) kitchen...

Damn!!! That squirrel is back in attic

It really has become clear that Z'ev has NO interest in playing with another dog. He sees a dog and appears to actively stalk it, wants to dart in, give it a bite to say "stay away from me, don't mess with me." Unfortunately, now, if Z'ev is in the kitchen, Ami won't come in Have not done' anything with Archer yet, other than to let him sleep in another room while the nasty critter is contained, either on leash or in crate. Archer won't back down, I believe.

Welll...we are in a fine pickle this morning. Things have been going so well that last night, I gave him a small rawhide roll left from the dogs long ago. This morning, he was really really quiet, not any sort of whine or howl when I came in the kitchen. Did my thing, got Wayne off for jury duty, finished my coffee, put my shoes on, my fleece, got the leash...

He won't come out of the crate Growls when I mess with the carabiners. But...he will take kibble from my hand through the wires. Guess we're just going to wait until either he needs to pee and drink...or he buries the roll or he finishes it. Wayne wants to lure him out with cheese - I'm not anywhere near ready to have that dog, without a muzzle, loose, anywhere near cheese. Or my kitchen!

I have to chuckle, Amy, that sounds like an "Ooops! shouldn't oughta've done that." I'm with you, in short<?> order he's going to want out - hopefully, his desire to get out will override the possessiveness.

Uh, yea...big Oops! I hate lifetime learning. I'd like to just be finished and rest on my laurels...but, I guess they call that "death"

Do you have any roll wire? you might be able to build a makeshift pen around the crate and then just open the door and wait him out. When he comes into the pen use a broom to shut the crate door, then nab him.

It took a few hours but, by noon, Z'ev had pushed the rawhide too the back of his crate and was thirsty enough to come out... eagerly, at that, too. We had a nice walk and, as Wayne and I planned to go out, Z'ev went to the shop crate. I let him have the rawhide in there since he left bones in there read. We bailed on shopping, though... both of us tired. Z'ev left the crate without incident to come back in the house.