Ok folks, I'm taking Chris and Nikolai back to the "Dog Nazi" tomorrow for another class. I don't want a repeat of last week, with the 4 day hunger strike and unhappy, stoic, pissed doggle... we've been doing his homework using lots of treats (I say lots, really it's ~ 1 post-it size square of thin cut cheese, 1/2 a salmon patty, 1/2 a hot dog, or 1 piece of turkey lunch meat). He knows his stuff, it's making him perform on command that will be the major challenge. So. I'm open to any and all suggestions to make this week better.

Chris has decreed that he doesn't want a "robot dog," just one that doesn't bite me. ;-) He wants to preserve the "independent, free spirit" part of our pup, but at the same time, he wants him to walk nicely on the leash (he's mostly there), come when called (HA!), and for the love of all that's holy, EAT SOMETHING. Oh, and he wants him to not beg when he wants our dinner or when he wants to go for a walk. I keep telling him to ignore it (if it works, he'll keep doing it! DUH), but he doesn't have the patience to try it my way.

As the one who primarily walks him, I don't really care about his pulling or not on the leash. I don't buy into the "if he's even a little ahead of you, he's being dominant" theory. He's being a dog. Dogs sniff, smell, sometimes linger a little longer to smell something good, etc. I've adjusted my expectations and don't need a dog who can do a tight heel - we're not showing him. He's under control and easily managed on even the flexi lead. This week, when I switched to the 6', we did heeling for the first mile or so (miserable for both of us), then practiced loose lead walking the rest of the time. By the last 10-15 minutes of our walks, my 96 year old grandma could walk him with 2 fingers... NO pulling, whatsoever. *sigh*

I guess what I need to figure out is how to talk to this trainer lady and let her know that we're not raising a proper show dog, that we think he's fabulous, just want to avoid possession aggression issues and perfect his recall. Huh. That's pretty easy to just type out there... maybe I can just tell her that, too.

Still sounds like you're not going to give this person a shot with this. I've learned that a solid foundation in all of the robot stuff makes for a happier "dog" dog. If you ever see my dogs you would swear I just tied them to a leash for the first time. And if you ever see us training you would have to find a word to make "Nazi" sound more like Marry Poppins. But they know their stuff. No one says you have to make your dog heel every time they move any direction. I think there is an end goal that needs the work you're doing now.

To me it sounds like he's bored with it. Part of the perception of this breed's hardheadedness is how quickly things wear on them. Are you in the same general area every training session? Same lead up and routine beforehand? Same time of day? Same rewards? Do you have a rhythm that's become predictable in your commands? Are the commands conveying the same frustration as your post? There's a lot going on here that we can't see or help with, and then you have another person involved that only increases the factors involved.

Put me in the "stick with it" club.

I was wondering if you'd chime in on this thread. ;-)

We went again on Saturday, but instead of doing any training, we spent two hours watching a video (Adam Stone's Temperamental). After talking with the lead trainer at length about my concerns with her methods, we're putting our training on hold until we can get some stuff sorted out.

In a nutshell, I'm looking for more of a behaviorist/trainer who sees the world like Pat Miller/Ian Dunbar/Victoria Stilwell and less like the Monks of New Skete/Ceaser Millan. That kind of training has and does work for lots of dogs and their people, but as an my dog's lifelong companion, I don't see myself as ever being the kind of person to do that to my dog. Call me weak, foolish, overly optimistic, or Granola, or Crunchy, or whatever... but I do not see myself ever being caught without a pocket full of dog cookies and a smile on my face. I will *NEVER* be the one to grab my dog by the scruff and yell at him. Period.

...and in my further investigation of this place, I discovered they're on the "False Claims to Membership" page of an organization that is important to me...

I figured as much. That's one of many reasons I usually stay out of these threads. I'm a hard edged person with no care about what my dog wants when I want something different. In fact, with training it's all conditioning to me with the dog's feelings being the least of my concerns. I'll leave the labeling up to the folks reading my comments, I'm sure my labels are more fun than yours.

Good luck.

I didn't mean any sort of slight or jab at you or the way you handle your dogs - your pack is great and it all works for you. ;-) Just for me, personally, I think we need something a bit softer... and my dog's feelings and emotional state really IS at the top of my priorities.

CoffeeK8 wrote:

...Just for me, personally, I think we need something a bit softer... and my dog's feelings and emotional state really IS at the top of my priorities.

I know of someone that does 'training/conditioning' with a 'softer' hand...I met with her back in the beginning when we were looking for doggy daycare and boarding places (which she also does). I've seen a class she was holding at a daycare when we stopped in to use their self-wash tubs. And she's kind of like the 'Victoria Stillwell'-type-trainer. Command, treat and praise.

Let me know if you're interested - it could be at least worth just talking to her over the phone so that you can 'interview' her....

I think there are many different schools of thought out there and what works for one may not work for another... and that has as much to do with the dog as it does the person. As many will tell you, training is just as much about training YOU as it is your dog

That being said, I honestly have no problems with what this trainer says except for the using treats as a lure and then not giving them to him. THAT sounds like a recipe for disaster for me. The rest of the stuff, I think it's to each his own and I wouldn't necessarily dismiss it.

My training style is at its core very reminiscent of Victoria Stilwell with a little bit of Caesar Milan (although I don't always agree with his methods, his messages are often right on) and the rest from personal mentors and husky forums In my heart of hearts, I wish that I had the time and the energy (cause frankly, I will never be in the shape that Eddy is in) to train the way that Eddy does and to build the bond that he has with his pack.

Your mind is already made up and I respect that, but if I had had the time to chime in earlier, I would have said to talk to the trainer, but to stick with it as long as you can. EVERYONE has something to teach us, and no education is ever a waste. (For example, look at me and Caesar ).

cmanding wrote:

Let me know if you're interested - it could be at least worth just talking to her over the phone so that you can 'interview' her....

For sure - I'm interested!! Thanks!

CoffeeK8 wrote:

...and my dog's feelings and emotional state really IS at the top of my priorities.

This is why I usually have a limited-time membership on dog related forums. I didn't think you were jabbing at me. There is a profound difference in approach and the things I do seem to only work for me. I got one third of the way through Karen Pryor's book and took it back the same day. I've dealt with positive reinforcement on a personal level in business and that has shaped my views. When I read through it, my mind is thinking "how could I turn this on its head to crush the trainers will?" and that affects how I implement that method.

You mentioned an organization. Have you used this place to help find a trainer they consider reputable? I missed a lot of the lead up in this issue, but I seem to remember he was guarding or snarling at people. That's an instant red flag issue for me that overrides the dog's emotions.

I'll email you the girl's name and contact info.

@Tori - Yeah... I know you could put 6 trainers in a room and tell them to train a dog and they'd have 6 different methods. ;-) My training philosophy and methods have been influenced by another pets board I'm on, too. I think this trainer is fine with a lot of things, but just not for us. If a dog sits, but just a little on your foot, it's not "a sign he's dominating me" - it's sloppy form on his part, but not dominance, IMO. She also has and used a prog collar on another dog, which may be fine for some, but no-freakin-way for me or my dog. According to this trainer, there are "over 200 other dog trainers in the metro area," so I might have better luck with one of them.

Have you looked into clicker training?

I have my dogs in a clicker training class right now. I think that it's great for reinforcing positive behaviour like getting Nikolai to walk on a loose lead, or be able to take his toy when he has it. I found though for more extreme undesired behaviours that clicker training doesn't do a whole lot.

I don't know a whooole lot a bout it, and haven't been in the class that long, but when ever I ask her questions such as " What should I do if he tries to eat the cat?" or " What do I do if they get into a fight?" etc. So far the only answers I seemed to have gotten was " Ummmm.... uhhhh.... ummmm." Which lead me to believe that a) She sucks at training or b) there isn't really a good way to incorporate clicker training or positive reinforcement into that. Yes, you can teach him to " leave it" with the cat.. but it's not quite clear to me what I was supposed to do in the mean time.. so I had to resort to my older methods ( which worked).

Now I'm really not that harsh with my dogs, when they do something really bad, I don't yell at them or even have to physically touch them. I taught them when they are bad, they have to lay down and show me their belly (submitting to me). All I have to do is say "Down" a little firm, and they know they are in Doo - Doo. So far, they have always settled after that.

But from what I can tell from Nikolai's behaviour and what you expect of him, I think clicker training would be worth looking into for you!

@Eddy - Now that I've done a little more research on this organization (on THEIR website, not this place), there is a trainer in the area that I might contact.

The precipitating event to get us to finally pull the trigger with training, is that he nipped at me when I tried to bring him in from work. He was in our lower yard, working on a bone, I called him, he didn't come, so I walked out into the yard to get him and he jumped at me and bit me in the rib cage, leaving me with a pretty nasty bruise. He went running into the house, into his kennel, and then snarled his lip back at me when I came in and closed the door on him. Looking back on this whole incident, I think he was fearful of me taking his bone, so that's why he lunged at me. :-( Resource Guarding can be desensitized and counter-conditioned with positive methods, so I was initially looking for a behaviorist to help me figure out how to do that. A friend recommended this other place, so we looked into it, and long story short, I signed on the dotted line and paid $$$ before really researching and processing things through.

CoffeeK8 wrote:

She also has and used a prog collar on another dog, which may be fine for some, but no-freakin-way for me or my dog.

Can I ask why?

Prong collars are one of those things that I don't have huge issue with when used correctly and in consultation with a trainer. Granted, there are definitely ways to use positive reinforcement, but there are cases where the proper use of a prong can really help and do wonders.

j.gabriel wrote:

But from what I can tell from Nikolai's behaviour and what you expect of him, I think clicker training would be worth looking into for you!

Yup, I think that's the direction we're headed. I'm not a Clicker Training pro by any stretch of the imagination, but there's a chapter in Pat MIller's book, "The Power of Positive Training" that addresses how to handle or manage "crisis" sorts of situations, where "positive" methods seem weak in comparison to just yelling, punishing, etc. It's a good book, highly recommended.

Koda wrote:

CoffeeK8 wrote:

She also has and used a prog collar on another dog, which may be fine for some, but no-freakin-way for me or my dog.

Can I ask why?

Prong collars are one of those things that I don't have huge issue with when used correctly and in consultation with a trainer. Granted, there are definitely ways to use positive reinforcement, but there are cases where the proper use of a prong can really help and do wonders.

This was an "advanced" class with three dogs in it. The big dog was really excited to see the other two dogs for the first 5 minutes of so, so she went back to her office and gave the client "her dog's prong collar" so she could "make him focus better." Didn't really work all that well, IMHO, because the dog still wouldn't DO what they were working on and winced/yelped a couple of times after she told the client to "correct him."

ETA: It occurred to me that I didn't answer why *I* wouldn't use one... personally, they just seem like a more effective means to inflict pain on another creature. I wouldn't like having something like that around my neck, I don't even like that kind of thing around my arm or hand, why would I want to use that on a dog I love dearly and deeply? I wouldn't.

I'd have to see what she means by "correct him." From my understanding, prongs aren't meant to correct through human intervention... and if that was happening, I would have HUGE issue with that trainer. Like... major issues.

From what I understand of them, although I would not use one until I put it on myself first, the prong is just supposed to pinch. There's a proper way to fit it so that it doesn't do more than that. Again, these are tools that are supposed to be used with the consultation of a trained professional, and from what I know of those I've spoken to, the dog isn't supposed to feel so much pain that they yelp. It's supposed to become a more effective choke chain, essentially.

I could be wrong, but what you're describing doesn't sound like the prong collar was being used properly at all.

Koda wrote:

I could be wrong, but what you're describing doesn't sound like the prong collar was being used properly at all.

Yup, reason #890423 why I wanted to run for the hills and take my stressed, freaked out, puppy with me...

... a choke chain is not supposed to be yanked on.

harrise wrote:

... a choke chain is not supposed to be yanked on.

Ha. You know, I added that bit afterwards... I should have stuck with my original thought. Even when I do all this research, the good and the bad get jumbled in my head sometimes. Thanks for the catch, Eddy

I'm with Eddy on this one. Biting/going for me is a serious red flag to which the dog simply becomes an object that needs to be dealt with NOW. As me the provider of food/exercise/everything that dog better respect me to the T. I'm not a "nasty" or "hard" trainer but aggression towards me is not tolerated at all. I know that I could pull any of my dogs off an object/dog/anything and I KNOW I won't get bit. Respect is tippy top of my priorities list. I need to be able to trust them 100% and in order for that to be possible I need 100% respect. Don't mean to put you off but i'm just saying how it is here. And for me to have 5 dogs (and even sometimes 6) in this house sleeping/eating/working together there needs to be standards and compliance.

I love my dogs. I love them to pieces. I talk like an idiot to them most of the day. But they know what's what. And that's how it has to be.

arooroomom wrote:

I'm with Eddy on this one. Biting/going for me is a serious red flag to which the dog simply becomes an object that needs to be dealt with NOW. As me the provider of food/exercise/everything that dog better respect me to the T. I'm not a "nasty" or "hard" trainer but aggression towards me is not tolerated at all. I know that I could pull any of my dogs off an object/dog/anything and I KNOW I won't get bit. Respect is tippy top of my priorities list. I need to be able to trust them 100% and in order for that to be possible I need 100% respect. Don't mean to put you off but i'm just saying how it is here. And for me to have 5 dogs (and even sometimes 6) in this house sleeping/eating/working together there needs to be standards and compliance.

I love my dogs. I love them to pieces. I talk like an idiot to them most of the day. But they know what's what. And that's how it has to be.

Ok, so what am I missing? I am all about dealing with this NOW, that's why I was going to hire a behaviorist and figure out a plan to work him through this issue. I'm assuming you believe he doesn't respect me - how do you suggest going about repairing that relationship?

After working with my first husky for MONTHS, using two different collars, her vomitting twice and passing out once, I was properly introduced to the prong collar. I believe in her case it was the humane thing to do. I have since read of these breeds of dogs that are bred to pull may actually damage their neck area from improper use of choke collars and even regular buckle collars.

....but.... walking on a lead does not seem to be Nikolai's problem. I do think the improper use of a prong collar by the trainer should raise some read flags.

CoffeeK8 wrote:

arooroomom wrote:

I'm with Eddy on this one. Biting/going for me is a serious red flag to which the dog simply becomes an object that needs to be dealt with NOW. As me the provider of food/exercise/everything that dog better respect me to the T. I'm not a "nasty" or "hard" trainer but aggression towards me is not tolerated at all. I know that I could pull any of my dogs off an object/dog/anything and I KNOW I won't get bit. Respect is tippy top of my priorities list. I need to be able to trust them 100% and in order for that to be possible I need 100% respect. Don't mean to put you off but i'm just saying how it is here. And for me to have 5 dogs (and even sometimes 6) in this house sleeping/eating/working together there needs to be standards and compliance.

I love my dogs. I love them to pieces. I talk like an idiot to them most of the day. But they know what's what. And that's how it has to be.

Ok, so what am I missing? I am all about dealing with this NOW, that's why I was going to hire a behaviorist and figure out a plan to work him through this issue. I'm assuming you believe he doesn't respect me - how do you suggest going about repairing that relationship?

I'm with Kristina on all counts noted, therefore, I'm also with Eddy. But we may do things different when it comes to our own. But the common denominator here is that the slightest sign of aggression or unwanted behavior is corrected right then and there when it happens.

I don't know how 'firm' Eddy is with his pack, but IMO, you do need to be firm and you do need to correct that behavior right then and there, when it happens. It doesn't mean you have to be extreme, because I believe you can be firm without being 'mean'.

I think we all have a different 'style' in building that trust and respect. And you'll need to figure out what your style will be, what makes you comfortable.

It seemed that you had made up your mind on how you wanted to train Nikolai, and that may be what you feel most comfortable with. I think we can only tell you how we handle our dogs, but it'll be up to you on what you take away from each of us.

If you still decide to work with a pet behaviorist, I think you will need to be open to what they have to offer, and take what you've learned from them which makes you comfortable and use it in your style when it comes to Nikolai.

As Tori says, there are many ways and styles to train and one way isn't necessarily going to work for all. So I think this is where you need to figure out what works for you, Chris and Nikolai. But you need to be open to what's out there so you can develop your own style. You may have to drawn on a combination of styles to find what works for you.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth....

The guarding/snapping/snarling at people thing is addressed from day one with any dog here. I assume that they will display this behavior and I actively train find their thresholds and to desensitize them every day. With the bone, if I were to approach and receive that behavior I would lure the bitey end to one side and grab the bone from the other. But I'm fast and I know how this breed moves very well (my guess is that most people would get bitten doing things my way). I suppose you could start with the bone in your possession, but for me I want that behavior so they understand why I'm pissed. Then the bone is used to teach the dog to accept the human factor. If he wants it, he only gets to chew on it while you're holding it and it's instantly gone if any part of the mouth touches your hand (I throw in a "HEY!", but that's me). Once he's approaching softly and chewing gently with awareness of where your hand is, we move on to letting him have the entire bone for maybe two seconds before it's taken away. If the behavior is there, go back to hand handling the object. If the behavior is absent, I would let the dog have it and go away. Then when he's done with it I would grab it and use it again for the next training session, gradually increasing that two second time up to a few minutes.

In my house this is done all day long with a variety of desirable objects until everyone can safely approach. Of course there's more to it than that, but I assume that you're not about to get physical if the situation deteriorates at the beginning. I'm around my dogs CONSTANTLY all day, a pillar in the foundation of their daily existence. Our bond is very strong and I feel that affords me more leeway in how certain behaviors are extinguished. I would never treat a dog that's not mine as if it were and that's where you need to find your comfort in a trainer.

This is a serious trait that puts the dog's life at risk depending on who might be present (ask Jenn about crazy people hunting you down on the internet because of a vendetta against your dog). We have too many children and people coming around for that behavior to ever show up. That is why I deal with it more harshly than most people would. If it were just me and Lindsay with one or two dogs I would probably take a much softer approach.


Regardless, when you find your trainer please keep us informed on progress.