I realize it's a topic discussed before, but just like with food, formulas change and our preferences change, etc. so I thought I'd start a new thread to find out what is working for everybody to control fleas, ticks,etc. I've been giving my two AdvantixII and it just doesn't seem to be working, my two are still getting fleas, little Mishka worse than Kohdi for some reason, and I need it to stop. I've used the food grade D.E on the carpet, sprayed outside, bathed them yesterday, and like I mentioned, they've been getting the AdvantixII for the last several months. They still have fleas

So, what are you all using?

I use a combination of DE, salt and borax on the carpet. My dogs get comfortus. I leave the borax mixture down for a day, vacuum, put it back down for day. I do this 3 days in a row then wait a week and put it down and vacuum again. Mine don't eat stuff off the floor or lick carpet though. If yours are carpet lickers you may want to skip the borax. That's how I deal with fleas. Ticks I use geranium oil and do a thorough search when they come in from outside. The yard is treated with diazinon.

Jenn, the D.E, somehow ruined my vacuum, is it possible I put it down to thick? Or is there a trick to vacuuming it up?

Jimmy - K9 Advantix II uses imidocloprid, permethrin and pyriproxyfen.  In my experience the permethrin is lousy adult flea control (ie, if your dogs are exposed to adult fleas in the environment, they will get fleas) with control lasting at best 3 weeks but great for ticks with control lasting about 6 weeks.  The pyriproxyfen is an IGR to prevent flea larvae from developing into adult fleas and one dose of that lasts about 4 months.  THe imdocloprid is supposed to make up the difference in the adult flea control that the permethrin lacks.  Looks to me like that part is not working for you.

Here's what I did last year when before I knew about the adult flea resistance to permethrin and both dogs got fleas:  First step...give each of them a dose of Capstar (and, if you have a cat, the cat, too.  THe most common flea on dogs is actually the domestic cat flea, ironically)  That will kill all the adult fleas within 24 hours...most within 4 hours.  Then, put a dose of fipronil (I use Sentry Fiproguard, there are others...but choose one that is ONLY fipronil, you have good IGR coverage for 4 months after the last Advantix II dose.)  Fipronil is an excellent ADULT flea preventive and one dose is good for up to 3 months.

Then...vacuum, vacuum and vacuum so more, getting particularly places like just under the edges of carpet, under furniture, around the perimeter of the room where wall meets floor (basically all the crevices.)  And any furniture, including under cushions, that can't be washed.  Since you've been using pyriproxyfen regularly, I would doubt you have viable flea larvae in the house but you never know.  Then...laundry.  All bedding that the pups have contact with. Hot water if not dryed in hot dryer.  Continue to vacuum as Jenn directed to make sure you get every adult and  juvenile flea and flea eggs that you possibly can.

Because I prefer topicals over systemics, probably without any real justification, and because fipronil is only so-so on ticks but great for adult fleas and permethrin is lousy for adult fleas  but great for ticks and pyriproyfen has 4 month duration of action, I have come up with a rather complicated rotation of products for external parasites.  You would probably have to treat year round, but I start in March with a dose of Vetquard Plus (permethrin plus pyriproxyfen), primarily for ticks as that is when our tick season begins, then 6 weeks later as the tick protection wanes, I give Freedom 45 which is permethrin alone (remember the pyriproxyfen duration is 4 months).  Another dose of Freedom 45 for the permethrin, then in 6 weeks back to Vetguard Plus to get the IGR (pyriproxyfen) again plus the permethrin for ticks.  Then, 3 weeks later (as the permethrin adult flea protection is waning) they get fipronil, dosed every 3 months mid June, mid Sept, alternating with Vetguard plus every 4 months with last dose November ish and Freedom 45, I think gets one or 2 more doses.

I always have a dose of capstar in the house in case of breakthrough.  I don't know if ticks are that big a problem for you out in California - here, they are horrendous and Lyme as well as Babesiosis and Erlichiosis are present (Wayne just wrote a script for antibiotics for a friend's son just before we went to the car show - a perfect example of a bull's eye rash on the back of his shoulder) which is why I insist on the permethrin.  If ticks are not a big concern, then I would just go with a fipronil product every 3 months with a pyriproxifen product every 4 months.  s-Methoprene is another IGR but is not sunlight stable, though I do not know if that makes any difference with spot-on products and I don't know the duration of action on that.

Good luck!  Sorry for the dissertation.

Don't be sorry Amy, I thank you, very informational. I will try everything you and Jenn have recommended, last year was awful here, and yes, when I did have to have Capstar on hand...I have to pick some up tomorrow. I can't have another summer like last year. Thank you both for your advice! I truly appreciate it.

Jimmy, I also use fipronil, have had great success, and I use the sentry, very inexpensive. I also use a bug guy who sprays my lawn and my house with fipronil every 3 months, and do not have issues with fleas nor ticks. Interesting thing that I just read, and that is that fipronil is said to be the most effective pesticide for fleas and ticks. Personally I would use the Fiprogard from Sentry, and I would call a bug company requesting fipronil, once it is dry, and it dries fairly fast it is safe for the animals.

Renee - the fipronil is more effective for ticks than the permethrin is for fleas - but when you read the data, the protection (for ticks) drops off after 3 weeks or a bit more - somewhere in the 80% ish range. Not good enough up here. But the permethrin for adult fleas drops precipitously approaching 3 weeks. Sigh. It would be nice to have 1 product for all...the seresto collar comes close but not for a wooly and not for dogs who routinely have their pals neck in their mouth And I'm really horrified (approaching phobic...or maybe ocd ) at the thought of fleas in my house so I insist on an IGR as well.

We have Lone star ticks, which with allllllllll of the rain we've had it is real bad. I have never seen a tick ever on me, and I have lived in NY, GA, FL, and 5 years here, and I have had 2 ticks on me. Now I do find that my bug guy came out every 3 months, and never, ever an issue with fleas and ticks. Bug guy came out in October, and he had a heart attack, and I usually skip the winter months, and have him start back up February or March, so no coverage, no fleas, knock on wood, but those 2 ticks on me, freaked me out! So effective for the girls, not effective for me. Yikes! Need a new bug guy....Oh and I use the straight up firpronil only Fiprogard, and my bug guy same thing, so not sure if Fipronil is just more effective here for fleas and ticks? Interesting on the permethrin, again tho, don't use that????Hmmm, thanks for the informative write up!

I used to use Advantix for years until it stopped working.

Then I researched more natural methods then switched
over to using essential oils, garlic, apple cider vinegar, and DE as needed. It worked for years but I still researched.

In my research on health (raw feeding, not using poisons monthly) I kept reading about how healthy animals don't get fleas. To that I kept thinking "yeah right"...if I stop using anything to control fleas they will come back. But it kept creeping back into my head, "what if they're right?"

So I began cutting out my "natural" flea preventative measures one at a time. First to go was ACV, no fleas. Next I cut out essential oils, huh, would you believe it, no fleas. Maybe there is some truth to this healthy animals don't get fleas?

It has been 2 years of not using anything for flea or tick control and neither of my 2 dogs has picked up any fleas or ticks despite living in the south with woods behind our house occupied by wild animals. They spend just as much time outdoors as they ever have. I have to say I'm becoming a believer. Side note, we feed grain free & I stopped using prescription heartworm meds and only give a small dose of ivermectin every 45 days.

A few years ago I thought this idea was crazy but clearly it seems to have some merit as it's been working for us.

Artic_Wind wrote:

Jenn, the D.E, somehow ruined my vacuum, is it possible I put it down to thick? Or is there a trick to vacuuming it up?

I think I would have to know what kind of vacuum (bagless or not) you have and how it is ruined to say one way or the other possibly. The DE hasn't bothered mine, a bagless Eureka, but I dump the container after every vacuum and beat out all the filters. If there's any moisture in the area you store the vacuum it might be absorbing into the DE and plugging things up with the little internal parts. It doesn't take a whole lot of DE to do the job when combined with the other stuff. The quickest way to get rid of fleas is to get rid of carpet. Once we scrapped the carpet in the living room it slowed our attacks down and made getting it under control so much easier. Before we had miles of carpet for them to hide in.

Val, that is interesting about the healthy dogs. I always put it more toward breeds. Ticks and fleas don't like Keno nearly as much. I usually find 3 or so ticks on kenzi after a walk in the woods. Keno might have one or none. Just figured he had a 'smell' about him maybe that bugs didn't like since he has been coined our medical mess and I definitely wouldn't think he is healthier than Kenzi. Do you think it's the raw feeding that attributes to it more or just the quality of kibble you supplement with? Or maybe vitamins?

The vacuum is an Oreck, with bags, I think the dust just overheated it or something. And yeah, the carpet thing...won't be anytime soon I can get rid of it, unless I want cement floors. My neighbor who has travertine throughout the house is having a similar flea problem though, but his dogs are outside most of the day too so that's probably the reason.

I'm somewhat skeptical on the "healthy dog" thing. While both mine have fleas, for some reason they're attracted to Mishka more even though it's Kohdi who is digging the holes/playing and laying in dirt. I posted to this, this morning but deleted it cuz when I read it I sounded drunk, lol,but anyways, on my last huskies, I used topical s on a regular basis and never ever saw a flea. When Malukhai was two years old and developed the seizures, I stopped using topical s among much much more stuff I ceased to use in the house/on them, just in case it was these things that were triggering seizures. So for the last 3 years of Malukhai and Anuschka's lives, they weren't receiving anything for fleas, and they, and this house, had none. Why? I do not know, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but they never had fleas. Same house, same carpet, same food (grain free btw, but not raw) even the same walking routes outside on our walks. It is an interesting theory though.... I don't know, it's difficult to explain a lot of things.

I thank you all for your help! I don't want to go the meds route, I'd like to be able to just use natural, but until I get it under control, I don't think I have much choice.

My grandma had an oreck. The heavy thing never impressed me much, especially considering the dirty salesman conned her into trading a Rainbow for the Oreck. I have a bagged vacuum also but with the bag I just don't clean it as often because bags are so hard to find for my model anymore and I think that plays a big role in how they hold up when vacuuming certain things. A bagless that you dumped after each use I think would hold up fine.

I think the fleas have become super fleas in the last few years. My parents had outside dogs who weren't regularly treated with anything much of my life and they never once had fleas. These dogs lived on Ol' Roy and table scraps for over 13 years without a flea. 3 years ago my uncle brought his dog over that was carrying some fleas and they have been fighting tooth and nail against the monsters ever sense. They put down DE in the house and in the yard. They put out Diazanon. They have tried every topical treatment under the sun and nothing has helped.

This Oreck is super light Jenn, what I like (I have 2) is that it reclines all the way to the ground do its great for going under beds and furniture. I know the Kirby was super heavy and sold door to door by salesman (my grandma had one, lol) and that thing sucked (not in the good way,haha) but grandma swore that thing was the best, lol.

I agree on the super flea thing. I think also in the past few years, rabbits have gotten out of hand in my neighborhood so that may account for some differences too...ony walk with the dogs, it's pretty hysterical to see these rabbits sitting on synthetic lawns, LOLOL .

Ugh, kirby. She had the kirby before the Rainbow. I would kill to get a rainbow. It is my dream vacuum. My other grandma on my dad's side has one currently. Oh the things that thing sucks right out of the air.

Fleas like dry spots. The year they got really bad here was the year we had a bad drought. The earth turned to sand and here they came in droves. Then it would rain, the fleas would panic and look for higher, drier, ground which was us. If the humidity in your house is high then fleas will like it even more deep inside the inner layer of your pup's fur where it's more climate controlled.

Ugh, I've been doing things all wrong then. I always thought fleas thrived in moist soil and they both lay on that grass in the backyard, so I havnt been watering it figuring I'll just redo it again in the Fall. So it's dry as a bone right now. I better start soaking it!

Honestly, I felt the same way you folks do. I didn't believe it could honestly be a health thing. But I live a heavy flea and tick area and I cannot deny the relatively long term, actual results with BOTH of my dogs who are completely different breeds (talking opposite spectrums here Sibe vs Chihuahua).

TwisterII wrote:

Do you think it's the raw feeding that attributes to it more or just the quality of kibble you supplement with? Or maybe vitamins?

I think it was more the raw feeding community that got me considering the "healthy" dog aspect. But as long as I've had my dogs off all chemical products they have eaten commercial diets...i.e. not raw. I fed raw up until I got pregnant with my first child...at which point feeding raw set off bouts of vomiting (for me) that just weren't worth the trouble so I switched back to grain free kibble with the intention of going back to raw post pregnancy. Well baby came and then not long after baby 2 was on the way and then we had to move after baby 2 was born and long story short, 5 years later I am still feeding kibble. So it's not due to raw feeding!

As far as vitamins, I cannot definitively attribute it to that either. Both dogs get very different supplements. The only commonality between the supplements they both get are garlic and PlaqueOff. Now garlic is supposed to repel pests so that is my only guess as to any possible supplement that may be effective. But even that they don't get every day. My sibe only gets garlic 3 times a week but that could be enough I suppose. Still, if it were garlic then I'd much rather use that over chemical insecticides any day.


Jimmy, are you using DE in the yard as well? If it is messing with your vacuum you can still use it outside but remember that it does not work when wet (since you mention soaking your yard ).

Val, I havnt used D.E in the yard, I'm not even sure why I didn't think about it! I've been spraying the grass area and perimeter of the house, but its when dogs are done playing and go in to sleep most of the day, I don't want them exposed to these things so in the afternoon before they get active again, I go outside to "rinse" it all away, figuring I'm probly not getting it all but atleast it's been heavily diluted. But D.E is safe so I'm going to use that instead!

The garlic supplements, they are safe for dogs? I've heard they can't have much in the way of garlic but since you have been using them, can you tell me what to look for in garlic supplements, please?

My sibe gets 600 mg of garlic 3 times a week. But his garlic comes in a combination pill so it's not just a plain and simple 600 mg garlic pill.

Like Val I use garlic in my girls food every couple of days, I stick ta about an 1/8 of a teaspoon, believe Val had that amount posted somewhere awhile back and have used that amount roughly.

I found a great article on how to rid a house of fleas, primarily using DE and the best way to apply it. Some things to point out is that fleas thrive in a humid environment, they do not drink water so the obtain their liquids through humidity, which in some cases humidity comes with heat. Here is the article it points out a lot of things, and it really describes how fleas thrive and how to get rid of them.

http://www.richsoil.com/flea-control.jsp

To be honest, I have never, knock on wood, have had a flea issue, but I have concrete floors, so I know that is a plus, but even in Florida with 3 and at times 4 cats with all carpeting never had an issue either, and I never used any type of flea control, except for my AC. So the theory of a healthy animal may hold some truth, I think more so is giving a flea opportunity to thrive. The article gives some real precise way of applying DE, so maybe that is the key???

Thank you Renee, that's a great article! I'd love to be able to accomplish ridding my two of fleas without chemicals!

One thing about DE - I know that when using it to control slugs or other soft bodied insects around plants, that it works by cutting their bodies with the sharp edges of the diatomes. With other, hard shelled insects it is supposed to work by smothering them, ie, blocking their respiratory pores. And the directions in using it always say to reapply when the DE gets moist - that moisture makes it cake and the mass becomes soft so it will neither be a "cutting" product nor a dust to block pores...

Upshot - possibly in high humid environment, DE is not the most efficient control. Just a thought. I maybe off the wall.

Our humidity usually kicks in around end of July/August , so I'm thinking during that time, the D.E won't be too effective, then I have a slight problem now thru this month or so of foggy days/nights...I'm thinking as fine as D.E is, even slight moisture from fog is enough to make it ineffective, but I'm hoping in the house atleast to get a handle on them and using the drops on the dogs for the rest of this year. Maybe by next year I can think of getting rid of the carpet. I'm not one that likes hardwood floors so the cost of what I'm wanting for floor covering is making me have to plan...and save, but I do need to get rid of the carpet I think. I started getting the D.E spread around inside again last nite, hopefully in a few weeks I will have noticed a marked improvement

Thank you all for your information and help, I truly appreciate it

According to the article I posted, DE on hard shelled bugs, it's not that they suffocate, it's because it dries them out, they need moisture to survive because they do not drink water, they absorb moisture, the DE dries them out and that is how they die. Yes Fog would be an issue, since it is providing moisture. Also from the article, keeping your lawn as short as possible, so fleas can not live within the grass, and direct sun, again, dries them out and kills them.

I think smothering the insect, and drying out the insect is basically the same thing...the insect can't survive without being able to draw in the elements it needs. Dish soap is also used to smother insects out in the garden without using pesticides, and is very effective on fleas as well.

I kinda don't get how to spread the D.E out "paper thin", but I'll figure it out. I'm going to use the D.E to do most of the work I think, since it's so safe, and go from there on whether I'll need further assistance from drops or chewable etc.

Artic_Wind wrote:

I think smothering the insect, and drying out the insect is basically the same thing...the insect can't survive without being able to draw in the elements it needs.  Dish soap is also used to smother insects out in the garden without using pesticides, and is very effective on fleas as well.

I kinda don't get how to spread the D.E out "paper thin", but I'll figure it out. I'm going to use the D.E to do most of the work I think, since it's so safe, and go from there on whether I'll need further assistance from drops or chewable etc.

Get a mason jar with lid...take a thin nail and poke holes in it...a whole bunch of holes.  You are making a shaker.  Or you can cut a piece of window screen to fit the top of the jar and hold in place with the band without the lid. THen..shake shake shake!

EDIT: As far as drops or chewables, I would ask your vet what the fleas in your area are most vulnerable too...