Hey everyone! I know I haven't been around lately, but I've been busy! I moved to Montana and we are just finally getting settled in.

Anyway, I got into a discussion the other day with a Sibe owner about Show type vs. Working/Sport type. She even threw in an "Old Type" in there and said it was most ideal because it focused on the older style of Sibe that worked as an all-purpose dog in Siberia. She gave lengthly descriptions of both the Show type and the Working/Sport type, their weaknesses, faults, and strengths. It seemed like she knew her stuff and had really gotten into the conformation of Sibes and their history as a working breed...but...well. Sometimes people can come off a lot of different ways, but end up just being your average joe with a grudge against the "majority".. You know?

It really piqued my interest because she started off this conversation with how "Old Type" Zander looked, despite his weak (red) coloration. I had to get more info after that! Lol. I did take notes, for any who are interested.

Just wondering what your general thoughts on it were? Does the Sibe really have different types according to the circle (as in some other breeds), or has it stayed true to the original standard?

i know there is a "show" type and a "working" type husky as far as looks go and i believe mentally as well. i truly believe i got lucky and Sierra is a "show" and Jack is a "working" husky, i get to see first hand how different they are. i have never heard of the "old type" will like to hear more on that. and how is red a week color....

i got into a conversation with some "jerk" at the pet expo over huskies and how husky mixes are better and he was trying to tell me that the white huskies have health issues... he really did not know a thing and i was losing my cool with him

I would guess (But, of course, I don't know for sure) that there must have been a "first" husky somewhere and from him came all huskies as we know them today.

As Jenn said, her two are very different, so I would guess that somewhere through the years different breeders began breeding for a specific look or trait. We have a kennel near us that breeds with a desire to have wooly huskies. They have found a few dogs that carry the wool gene and are marketing it.

I would have liked to have heard that conversation...

jbealer wrote:

i have never heard of the "old type" will like to hear more on that. and how is red a week color....

They way she explained it: Dark pigment absorbs the sun better than lighter colors. Cheetahs have black eyeliner, and football players wear black under their eyes because black absorbs the glare from the sun away from the eyes. Red pigment also does this, but not as well if it is light, like Zander. She said fur pigment was mostly irrelevant, as was eye color. Since they are a double coated breed, their skin is protected no matter what. Thus, the pinto colors were completely acceptable as long as the base was a darker color. Eye color was more of a "up in the air". She said she didn't believe that blue eyes were any different from brown ones, as long as they had proper dark eyeliner. She said amber eyes were common in the history of the breed, but not in modern times. Basically, she was calling Zanders "light red" a weak color, giving preference to the darker reds, blacks, etc because they absorbed glare from the sun and off the snow better, giving them better sight usage overall.

Old type was sort of a mix between Working and Show. She explained that the older type Sibe was a "staying" kind of working dog. The Siberian people were nomads, so the dogs had to be able to keep up over long distances. They were used mostly as a farming companion, so they had to have the medium sort of build to stay the distance in traveling, but maintain a high gear for a decent amount of time for herding and hunting.

This mostly meant a deep chest and girth, long legs, strong loin and medium-set stifle and hock. Also, the stifle couldn't be too long, nor the hock too sort or the gait wouldn't be smooth enough for the body to endure over long periods of time. The head was heavy, but not coarse, and clearly sexed. The back was mostly short, with most of the length of the dog coming from a strong/deep shoulder and hip, which were both more round than angular.

The shoulder was set a bit more back than forward, with a decent, sloping angle for smooth gaits. She said the chest should be clearly defined from the neck, and that unfortunately the show type did not have a clear definition between the two, giving the impression of a low set/long neck that continued straight down to the front legs with little to no chest inbetween. The bottom angle of the shoulder should be set away from the neckline, giving a strong, forward-type chest that then sloped into the front legs. Slightly more square than either type, with a balanced shoulder and hip, rather than an overly developed shoulder and weak hip. It should be a larger dog than the show type, but not robust, coarse, and heavy like the working type.

From there, she said most of the basic conformation melted away when they were shipped to alaska as sled dogs. And from that, the modern types split into the working type and show type.

I remember reading a publication from the SHCA which stated that although people refer to show type and working type that all Siberian Huskies in the US originated from two kennels so that the distinction between type is really a misnomer.

Never heard of the "old type" either. But there is a lot of differences in all the show dogs I've seen. I'm sure the same for working ones too. So it almost seems unfair to lump them into categories.

beck3465 wrote:

I remember reading a publication from the SHCA which stated that although people refer to show type and working type that all Siberian Huskies in the US originated from two kennels so that the distinction between type is really a misnomer.

She referenced a particular kennel that bred foundation stock that most Sibes today descend from. This particular strain stayed true, though, and adopted a name other than "Siberian Husky". But she said reds in this line are practically non-existent. The breeding program used more stock from Siberia than from the kennels in USA and Canada. I don't know if it is considered one of those kennels or not. But when the strain started dying out, a Canadian kennel and USA kennel joined together to keep it going. And I'm not sure about the rules on this forum regarding kennel names?

From that point, I wasn't sure if she was talking about a "type" or another breed entirely. Sibes came from this line, though, so she considered it a type, although it goes by another name entirely.

My headed wanted to explode by the end of this conversation, trust me!

Was she talking about seppala siberian huskies?

maybe she meant old lines...

SaraB wrote:

Was she talking about seppala siberian huskies?

That's the one.

Jennet&Embry wrote:

maybe she meant old lines...

Maybe. She used the words "old" and "foundation" a lot, but seemed really intent to make the Seppala line and modern lines sound completely different in body type.

Sounds like this lady really knows her stuff. I am very interested in older lines that go back to the way the breed originally was. Seppala is well known and goes back very far. You can still find those lines being bred and I know of another sibe kennel owner that caught a lot of flack on another forum over their lines being so different. However I really admired that breeder for breeding for the huskies main, original purpose. That breeders' sibes looked very different from your typical modern show and working sibes but they were FUNCTIONAL and looked very much like early siberians. I hate that the breed, like most breeds do, has shifted quite a ways but it is what it is.

I'd never buy a sibe as I'd rather adopt and save a life, but I will say that if I ever even considered it (not going to happen, but hypothetically speaking) I would be looking for a working line sibe whose lines go way back to well known older lines. Seppala is one, but there are a few others.

Hmmm...I wonder if she's referring to the original Seppalas.

Here's another reference to "old style" huskies :
http://www.dogtec.com/forum/topic/51/cowboy-smith-old-style-huskies/1#post140
The question sounds like it's looking for information on the old Seppala line from Canada.
"In 1939 the last Siberia imports, along with several of Seppala’s dogs, became the breed foundation for the “Siberian Huskie” in Canada. The Canadian Seppala Kennels of Harry R. Wheeler in St. Jovite Station, Quebec, developed and bred Seppala Siberians until 1950 in genetic isolation from the developing Siberian Husky breed in the USA, which gradually became oriented more and more toward conformation dog shows. A succession of Seppala breeders kept the strain alive through the 1950s and 1960s." - wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppala_Siberian_Sleddog)

I also found this article on sled dog central about "old timey" huskies - but it refers to Alaskan Huskies : http://www.sleddogcentral.com/features/little_wolf/alaskans.htm
REAL alaskan huskies (pet peeve when people call Siberians Alaskan Huskies

Reference to "old line breeder" :
http://www.siberian-huskies.com/
"Tori Siberians is a breeder of OLD LINE Siberian Huskies. The goal of an old line breeder is to produce a Siberian husky as close as possible to the original ones bred by Leonard Seppala and Lorna Demidoff in the early days of the breed. The original Siberian huskies were bred to work in arctic conditions and have a good character that would lend them to work well with humans and other huskies. Our main goal is old-line type, good structure, working capability and superior compatibility. " No reference to color here.

Which led me to this article about Mackenzie River huskies :
http://www.sleddogcentral.com/mackenzies2.htm
"My research and consequential breeding program began in 1990 after the passing on of my last freight husky. In complete ignorance, I started asking questions and researching libraries for the truth instead of rumors and myths surrounding these dogs, and at the same time trying to locate any that resembled my old working huskies. I kept getting conflicting information both from people and from the small amount of published information I could find. I looked at a motley variety of dogs with only a precious few resembling my huskies, all claiming to be Mackenzie River Huskies."

The Alaskan Husky and The Mackenzie River Husky are frequently darker than Siberians. I wonder if she was talking about ALL huskies or Seppalas, not Siberians. And with all due respect to that lady, anyone and the internet can find out about Seppalas. She lost me at "weak" red color and amber eyes. I have never read anything about Huskies judged by color, always by their function. I agree with the distinction between Seppala and Siberians, but do not agree about appearance being a factor. I'm fairly new to huskies but have done a fair amount of reading online and this all sounds weird. <shrugs>

However. the distinction between different lines does fascinate me, since I have 2 very opposite huskies. I started looking into the history of huskies when I realized Chili's size was so abnormal and ran across numerous tiny show-style huskies here (plus, I'm originally from Canada so I felt like I had to know more than the average husky owner! ). It's fascinating to see the differences between all of our dogs on this forum! I had never seen a real tan/black husky outside of Husky Colors website until l I saw Kristina's Mickey!

Yeah, the color thing is where I started getting a little "What?". I've always seen Sibes in a bajillion colors, with no real rhyme or reason between color and function. The only part that got me was the eyes, and how the eyeliner (or overall pigment of the dog) need to be strong in order to absorb the glare of the sun.

Zander is huge too, and everyone calls him a wolf hybrid because of his color and size('cause, you know, ALL Sibes are black and white with blue eyes ). Then I stumbled around here and other sites and I figured out he wasn't all that different. Now I'm reading into Seppalas and other foundation lines. Kinda cool, really. Zander's mom was registered AKC, but his dad wasn't. Both were reds, and his dad was pretty big from what I remember. BYB, of course, though. So who knows.

I noticed that some of the Seppala dogs don't really have the strong hind end she was talking about. Some do, though. And some are pretty gangly looking compared to what she was talking about, but I guess they could be growing and just in an awkward stage. Otherwise, they seem to fit pretty perfectly as to what she was describing. I'm also not seeing many reds in that line. So is there anything behind that at all, or was she just going off on a slight color preference rant?

I thought I knew a decent deal about Sibes, but you learn something new every day I guess. Thanks for the links, BTW!

Some fascinating pictures of the famous Balto - it's interesting to see "old timey" pics of huskies! Read on for stories on how Balto got all the glory while Togo did most of the trek to Nome.



http://www.animationsource.org/board/and-now-for-some-balto-photos-t7549.html

There's a website about Balto, Togo and Fritz I found a long time ago - but can't find the link now. Here are some other cool links with old pics:
http://www.workingdogweb.com/Balto-and-Togo.htm#Overview
Including - ew - the actual real life stuffed dogs
http://www.workingdogweb.com/Siberian-Husky-Fritz.htm

And
http://fluke.theicecave.org/realbalto.shtml

Seriously, bring on some popcorn!

I think there is something to the Seppala having a very different neck and shoulder area than most of our modern sibes. For instance, not to pick on Zander, (because actually I just wanted to look at his album again ) but there is a great pic of him from the side. Compare that pic to some Seppala pics online and the Seppala definitely have a more defined neckline. Something about that ancient line looks like a shepherd....

This is interesting stuff!

SabakaMom wrote:

I would guess (But, of course, I don't know for sure) that there must have been a "first" husky somewhere and from him came all huskies as we know them today.

It is speculated that a few of seppala's best dogs (Togo, Fritz, and Suggen) along with four siberian imports probably factor into the pedigree of every living siberian. So in a way, yes there were a select few you could call the founding dogs.

Kitty is a great example of "old line" coloring. Look at a picture of Balto, Kitty looks just like him! Most of the original dogs were darkly pigmented. That trait was probably selected for long before the dogs were ever imported to Alaska. I'm sure the darker color reflecting the sun did play a big part on how the chukchi people selected which dogs to breed, but it it probably wasn't the only factor. It is known that the chukchi did practice selective breeding. They did neuter some dogs, and only let their best dogs breed.

An old coworker of mine knows John Van Zyle (painter that does all the iditarod promo art) and he actually went to the original native territory of the husky and managed to import some back to Alaska. It is amazing how much they resemble the Siberians here in the usa.

I would love to travel to see huskies in their native land. The heritage of this breed is truly amazing.

On a side note, I hate when people say their dog is related to Balto! Balto was neutered by seppala because he wasn't that great of a sled dog. There is now way any dog is a decendent of Balto, yet I've had many people tell me their dog is... and these are usually the same people that have a dog that's way outside the breed standard and plan on breeding their dog!

Oh, no, feel free to use Zander as an example. He's my baby, he'll do just about anything I ask of him, but he isn't a stud and I will never regret neutering him. He isn't a breeding animal. Besides, I think the fact that this woman said Zander was "Old-type-ish" gives plenty of grounds for compare and contrast! I can upload a better side pic if you want.

This really is interesting stuff. Are there any other foundation lines out there, or are Seppala's the only ones that continued to "breed true" as they say?

I'm reading through the generations on the seppala site now. It really is amazing how each generation differed from each other. I really love Shango in particular, who sired several litters in the Markovo line:

http://www.seppalakennels.com/markovo4.htm

And some of his babies are on this page:

http://www.seppalakennels.com/2markovo8.htm

You can really start to see the resemblance to modern Sibes. Then in the Modern Seppalas, you can see them getting leaner and "stretchier".

Mmm. Popcorn!

i've enjoyed reading the info you gave. i'll be keeping an eye on this thread, very interesting

Chinook Kennels, Monadnock Kennels, and Cold River Kennels are considered the most influential kennels in the development of the AKC recognized siberian. These were the kennels that received many of their foundation dogs from seppala dogs or siberian imports.
With these kennels, you can begin to see the transformation of the old line look to the typical siberian we see today.

[quote="Lu&amp;Katsmom"]

SabakaMom wrote:

On a side note, I hate when people say their dog is related to Balto! Balto was neutered by seppala because he wasn't that great of a sled dog. There is now way any dog is a decendent of Balto, yet I've had many people tell me their dog is... and these are usually the same people that have a dog that's way outside the breed standard and plan on breeding their dog!

Yes!!! I read that too a while ago! I couldn't remember if it was Balto, Fritz or Togo - so thank you!

Kitty's beautiful! Another example of a rare husky color!

Here's another awesome Old Timey Husky pic! Togo!

From : http://www.animationsource.org/board/real-balto-and-togo-basic-fact-files-t8646.html

Fritz (Togo's half brother) looks more like our modern day huskies:

Look at that cute little round husky head!!!


Togo was left with a breeder in Maine - Elizabeth Ricker - here she is with one of the Seppala descendents (Love the flapper look!)


Seppala and some huskies from 1925!

Seppala and doggies

From :
http://www.animationsource.org/board/leonhard-seppala-the-norwegian-who-started-it-all-t10593-15.html
Some pics are credited to here: http://www.polandspringseppalas.com/3.html
One more from Poland Springs Seppalas - the one in the middle reminds me of our Chili:


It's so amazing to me that my doggies have ancestors from that time! I love my rescues, but I would love to know their history just for curiosities sake!

loved reading this!

I skimmed through this and didn't get to the links, but I'm gonna!
Great topic!! and good info!
Thanks!!

I've changed the name to be more descriptive, stickied this and moved it to the Resource Library. It's full of great information and think it should be easily accessible for all to read!

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread so far! Great source of info and let's keep it coming!

Excellent, I was about to suggest that we make this a sticky!