I remember there was a thread similar to this topic, but after a lot of searching, I can't find it. If anyone can refer me to it, I would really appreciate it.

So, I've had this issue since I brought Dizzy home at 9 weeks, and I've tried so many things to deal with it, and none seem to be helping.

Here's the issue: Dizzy completely fixates on other dogs. The most common scenario is that we are out for a walk on the sidewalk and we see one coming towards us. He used to lay down flat and then spring up to play as they approach and will still do this sometimes. Generally though, now, he sees one (any dog) and drops his head, stiffens up, and starts to stalk as if he's prey stalking, and will still lay down if I let him. When he gets into this fixation mode, there is nothing I can do to get his attention away from the other dog. Generally it ends up with me either dragging him away or holding his collar and he jumps around and lunges while play growling as the other dog walks by. He wants to meet and play with every dog we see or try to pass during the walk. A lot of other dog owners in the city tell me that their dogs did the same thing when they were puppies and that their dogs grew out of it. I'm getting very frustrated with it and I can't seem to find the right solution to the issue. I'm starting to wonder if it might be something more that a desire to play and if it might be anxiety or OCD based with Dizzy. The intensity of the fixation and the body language associated with it reminds me of the way a border collie will obsess over a ball.

What I've tried: Socialization - Dizzy goes to daycare, two to three days a week, and the dog park on the weekends. He definitely gets a lot of playtime and interaction with other dogs, so its not as if he's starving for social time. Worked on targeting command. So stepping aside and teaching him to touch my hand as the other dog passes. This works in the moment sometimes, but has done nothing to stop the initial fixation reaction. There is no improvement overall and often times, he will appear to target, but then at the last moment lunge toward the dog as its passing. Luring with a high value treat - letting him lick or nibble on his favorite treat as we pass the other dog. Again, this works at the moment, but has done nothing to curb the fixation reaction. Teaching the command 'look' - teaching him to make and hold eye contact. I'm not sure what this method is called, but another thing I tried was basically walking backwards as soon as the behavior would begin. When he gave his attention to me, I would stop walking backwards, quietly praise, treat, and just stand. When his excitement level came down, I would attempt to take a step forward again and he would bolt to the end of the leash and fixate or lay down, or jump around wildly. So, the walking backwards would start again, and the process would start all over. I would only allow him to move forward if he was calm and not in stalk mode. These sessions would leave him panting and stressed, but did nothing to curb the initial response. His reactivity decreased slightly, but he would still lock in and stare. Pinch collar, harness, etc. - physically removing him. Exercise - he gets at least an hour walk before work, an hour walk plus 30-45 min of dedicated training time after work, and then an hour walk in the evenings before bed. Certain times during our walks, we run and play on grassy areas, and I put him on a long line so he can get out some zoomies. I can manage our walks, by putting him on my other side and pulling him in on a super short leash when we need to pass another dog, but I'd really like to stop that initial prey stalk. I don't allow him to play with other dogs on leash any more and at this point I don't even let him approach other dogs while on leash because he can't greet and move on. He greets and initiates play. Desensitization - sitting in the park, watching people and dogs go by.

Within the last week, I've had to completely stop his play sessions with other dogs because he has puppy warts. Last night he had a play date with a doggie friend that had already had them. Overall, I was seeing an improvement over the last week since he's been totally cut off from dog to dog interaction. This morning, he was back to the total fixation. At one point he got himself so worked up that he vomited all the high value treats I had given him for passing by other dogs.  

Anyway, could this be something more than a teenage puppy being a butthead, or do you guys think its standard? What suggestions can you give me to work on this? Thank you in advance!

I have no advice, but I will be following this for sure. Nikolai has always been like this, luckily we don't see to many dogs out on our walks, but it has recently rubbed off on Siku and its getting very annoying. Plus when they do this everyone looks at us like we have these big bad wolves, and I'm getting pretty sick of it.

I often wonder if daycare makes it worse. Because they get to play with every dog there and I wonder if it carries off into public where they think they are entitled to play with every dog.

I was kind of wondering the same thing. Honestly at this point, I don't necessarily need socialization for him in the same way I did when he was a really young puppy, so I'm debating about just cutting out daycare and dog park visits until I can work through this issue. My end goal would be for him to ignore other dogs, or maybe just give a curious glance and continue walking.

Yeah, I've been on the same page with daycare. Although now I think I have to wait till Spring to cut it out. Where its so dark here all the time now, its really hard to tire them out like daycare does every day because its like dark when I wake up and dark when I'm out of work, and my neighborhood isn't all that safe where I would be comfortable walking around. If you do cut out daycare to work on this issue, let me know if that does help because that might be something that we just have to do. Its so embarrassing to pass dogs right now.

So if Dizzy is allowed to greet, it's all a big play session? The key with any dog who fixates or is reactive is that you need to catch them before they go over threshold. How far away does the dog have to be before Dizzy notices them? And then how close to they have to be for the fixation to being? Hopefully there is a gap you can see between those times as that will be your sweet spot. Grisha Stewart does have a BAT protocol for frustrated greeters but it does entail with allowing the dog to greet afterwards or eventually so you can try that but it may not be the best initially.

On generally moving past distractions:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/reactive-dog-moving-past-distractions

Will Dizzy take treats if there's another dog in the peripheral? I would honestly start by treating for anytime he looks (this is not fixating) at another dog while on leash. And then gently toss treats in the other direction and move away that way. That way he is choosing to move away from the dog.

If you could get a video, it would really help. It sounds like a lot of built up frustration, I wouldn't pin it as CCD just from the description.

He's out of daycare and the dog park for at least a few weeks now because of the puppy warts, so I'll definitely let you know how it goes. After his behavior this morning, I decided no more play dates for a while either. My thinking had been if I allow him to have a good dog play outlet, that might help reduce the behavior, but I think it may have been making it worse. I hear you about it being dark and scary... I was SO happy for the fall back because I can get him at least an hour walk in from 6-7 am as its light enough here. Does Nikolai seem anxious? Dizzy has a 'soft' personality and will get anxious or give up when training gets too challenging.

I am also considering limiting our walks/outside play time to a couple of specific areas that are lower distraction, but I was worried this would decrease his threshold of reactivity and actually make it worse.

Kristina, interesting suggestion treating for looking, but not fixating. Generally, I've been treating for looking away, and any change in body language away from fixation, I will add your suggestion of treating for non-fixation glances. In terms of taking treats, he will take them, but tends to think that once he gets the treat its a release. I'm trying to tackle this issue separately by continually giving treats to teach him, that longer attention gets more treats. Ultimately I would like him to be able to greet, but I think at this point, it's kind of premature. It has become a self rewarding behavior, so I want to nix the contact for a while so he can sort out what allows him contact and what doesn't. The moving past distraction article is very helpful, and I'll start employing some of those strategies, usually I just cross the street. I'll try and get a video tonight if I can.

Nikolai is very dominant so I think thats where his behavior comes from but I think Siku is more like Dizzy where its just anxious and from watching how Nikolai reacts my sweet little boy, is becoming a little bit to aggressive, but its not like he is mean when he greets the dog, just sounds that way while passing.

Yeah since I hurt my ankle and can't walk them, I haven't found the best time to get them exercise in this Fall awfulness yet, but I will probably have to be around the same time that you are. Also I know i asked you on another topic but I will never be able to find it again, what kind of beef jerky do you use on occasion for treats?

I think it was jack's links, also tried oberto. A couple weeks ago, I found bacon jerky at walgreen's and that was a big hit too. Honestly he likes it all, I just try not to use it super regularly because of the high salt content.

Thanks, yeah I want to try that and then try some string cheese. It shouldn't be so hard to find something that makes Siku go crazy, but so far its impossible.

This is not Dizzy, of course, but its very similar, except he moves a bit faster and is more crouched. Although he will actually lay down as well, and his head is often lower.

Well, I think yesterday morning may have been the beginning of an extinction burst, or at least I'm hoping so! When I walked him after work yesterday and then again last night he was so much better! I was able to get him to walk past other dogs while looking, but not trying to play or stalk. This morning, he was more reactive, but only tried to lunge/play twice during our hour walk. We probably saw about 10 dogs. I started watching for his threshold last night and am trying to ride that, changing direction or stopping and having him sit when we would get close to the edge. I also started rewarding him for things like looking away, sniffing the ground, and looking but not stalking. A great way I discovered to work with that last night was to walk toward the dog park (stationary distraction). He gets excited and knows when we are going in the direction, so when he starts to get into that excited/stalking head space, we just turn and go the other direction. Last night we were pretty far away when we had to turn around. I did a few trials, and was able to figure out the distance where his level of excitement would escalate. The distance changed from our early evening walk to our late evening walk. Anyway, I really appreciate the input on how to work on this and will just keep consistent with these strategies.

Erica, one thing I did last night that seemed to help take the edge off was to spend a good half hour wrestling with Dizzy and playing with him like a husky would. He had great fun, especially since I was wearing a baggy sweatshirt. He could play bite and grab without hurting me. After that play session, I noticed he was looking to me and checking in with me a lot more on our walk. He has great bite inhibition though and would stop right away if I yelped.

siku&nikolai wrote:

Thanks, yeah I want to try that and then try some string cheese. It shouldn't be so hard to find something that makes Siku go crazy, but so far its impossible.

This is a super, super, odd one, but man did Dizzy go nuts over it. I love these maple leaf, cookies, I hadn't gotten them in forever, so I picked up a box yesterday. I was happily munching away when Diz came over to see what I had. I gave him a tiny crumb and his reaction was on par with raw meat! These are higher value than even cheese! Who knew?  

Kenzi fixates too. Cheese and pupperoni are her high value treat but aren't enough when another dog is around. She puts off signs more like an ADHD child when certain things like food, kids, or dogs are around. Not sure if there's anything to be done about ADHD in dogs. I believe she falls on the opposite end from Dizzy as far as socialization goes. I don't think she had any prior to us.

wpskier222 wrote:

Erica, one thing I did last night that seemed to help take the edge off was to spend a good half hour wrestling with Dizzy and playing with him like a husky would. He had great fun, especially since I was wearing a baggy sweatshirt. He could play bite and grab without hurting me. After that play session, I noticed he was looking to me and checking in with me a lot more on our walk. He has great bite inhibition though and would stop right away if I yelped.

I've actually tried this and Siku looks at me like I'm absolutely insane, he actually pretty much just stood there and shamed me, until I stopped!

Maple huh? I will have to look into that, cause I'm willing to literally try anything to get his attention. I will also work with looking for his threshold and everything that you did. I wish it was easier to find dogs around here to practice, but we barely ever see them. I just really need to get it under control, because I finally got all of our skijor stuff, and would prefer not to die because he see's another dog!

Glad you're seeing progress!

wpskier222 wrote:

Well, I think yesterday morning may have
Erica, one thing I did last night that seemed to help take the edge off was to spend a good half hour wrestling with Dizzy and playing with him like a husky would. He had great fun, especially since I was wearing a baggy sweatshirt. He could play bite and grab without hurting me. After that play session, I noticed he was looking to me and checking in with me a lot more on our walk. He has great bite inhibition though and would stop right away if I yelped.

Jen I'm so glad to know this works for you too. You know that I have posted about doing this on several occasions and I have noticed the exact same thing: it naturally produces trust and respect, and most importantly in your case, deference for guidance.

So good to hear Dizzy is improving. I've been proactively working on the same things. The dog cases are going well but still working on jumping up to greet people...granted, people who approach him by going "AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH" and face washing him and on and on and on. They bring a level of excitement that is completely foreign to him. And then he jumps and talks and then I look like the idiot.

 

When we were working on the edge of the threshold last night, he would start to whine when I would recall him and have him sit. It was one of those times where it was adorable, but I had to stay in 'working' mode.

haha Gus gets like this when we're close to the dog park. The whining is more like a hyena scream. It's funny and adorable, and yet so stressful at the same time haha.

Gus does the same stalking behaviour, and also the laying down and then springing up. When he lays down, it is impossible to get him up again unless the other dog leaves or comes up to greet him. He is generally very in-your-face with other dogs and that tends to turn some dogs off. Sometimes, i think he tries to piss them off by play-dominating them just to get their attention.

For us, i found that turning around and walking in the opposite direction and treating worked. With Gus, his fixation is more with squirrels. ONLY squirrels. Not birds. He will look at birds, but will still obey a "leave it". With squirrels, not even food can snap him out of it.

Okay here's an update on this problem. It had really come back with a vengeance, and truthfully it made walks really unpleasant. He had gotten to the point where he would either lay down and stalk, and refuse to move (which resulted in me dragging him down the sidewalk), or jump and lunge while play growling. So, I've been working on this issue again, and in doing so another popped up that I realize is a result of what I've been doing. I have found a solution that seems to be making a huge difference with both issues, so I wanted to update in case anyone else has this issue too.

My solution for the fixation issue is a combination of training a couple of new commands along leash corrections and tons of cheese.

"Look" this one is pretty self explanatory, but essentially it's a command for him to make and hold eye contact with me (thank you Ceara) . This works if the other dog is outside the threshold and not too animated. The more movement he sees, the more exciting the situation is and the more he fixates. Although, even with those situations there is an improvement in that he will jump a little, but not all out stalk or lay down.

"On by" This is an obvious one too, but to teach it, I started with inanimate objects, trash cans (yum), light poles etc. I just said "on by" and kept walking. When his focus moved on, I would praise. I didn't use any food to train this one as he seemed to catch on without it. I can use this if there is a dog across the street. Now, he will look away and walk forward. So, I will say, "on by" and when he looks away, we walk forward and I say "look" and treat and praise.

"Right" and "left" essentially healing on my right or left side. When we pass a dog I put myself between him and that dog, so I have a command for each side.

Another challenge in the city is stop lights. Often there will be 2 or 3 people sometimes with dogs waiting to cross. He loves everyone, and being a husky, everyone loves him, so it can be difficult to have his focus remain on me. I will occasionally allow him to greet people, but only if it towards the end of the walk and he's not wound up. So for this I ask him to sit, and then look, so he maintains eye contact with me. If he breaks it he gets a leash correction I ask him to sit again. There are also times I don't want to have to have constant eye contact but need him to sit, so during these times, I lure him to sit by my side and tell him to "wait." When I'm ready to go I praise, treat, and then give him the heeling command and start walking.

Leash corrections. I know many people disagree with this, but quite frankly, it has been working for dizzy so I'm going to keep at it. When he first notices another dog I give an extremely gentle, quiet tug. Essentially I tighten and loosen the leash as a reminder/cue to stay calm, like "hey, I'm still here." I ask him to "look." If he ignores that command, or there is any increase in intensity of his focus on the approaching dog, I give a leash pop. The degree of the leash correction depends on his intensity level. If ears come forward and head drops, he gets a strong correction (at least on our scale of corrections). Then immediately ask him to look or ask for on by, depending on the situation, giving corrections as needed (verbal, or leash if needed). The second his focus shifts away from the other dog he gets calm praise and cheese. Often, it will be a moment by moment change between getting a correction, and getting a reward, so I have to be really focused on him, and have really good timing. My timing has gotten better, and as a result so has he.

So the other issue that came up, as a result, is that he would get zoomies and go nuts "attacking" me in play out of nowhere. Jumping on me, play growling and barking, biting, ripping my clothes, etc. I could see when it was about to happen, he would get that evil husky glint in his eye, or start to nose my hand, and then off he would go. We wrestle at home still, and he's allowed teeth on skin during that play time. He has generally a soft mouth and I've never had an issue with biting. If he gets too excited or wild in this play I do some calming exercises and redirect him to a bone and walk away. Anyway, all of this impulse control training above was leading to these episodes of losing his composure. I started reading into Natural Dog Training, and essentially the theory is harnessing a dog's prey drive in training rather than suppressing it. Suppressing prey drive is exactly what I'm doing when I'm asking him to walk by other dogs, or not chase wild animals and whatnot. So I realized that whenever we were walking by a dog, or when I asked Dizzy to control his impulses, that was making a deposit in the prey drive vault. Without allowing him a release, he would hit his limit and boil over, hence crazy street zoomie attack. To be clear, this was PLAY, not AGGRESSION. So, what I have done is structure his walk so that he has about 5 min to sniff and pee at the start, 20-30 min of walking on left or right with all the stuff mentioned above, then 10-20 min of free play time in the park (read: go nuts), and walking home heeling on right or left.

During the free play I put him on a long line on his harness and whip out an exciting toy of some kind (usually a rope toy), and start with a game of tug. His intensity with this is actually crazy high. Ever see a working German Shepherd in training? Like how the handler can literally get the dogs feet off the ground during tug? That's how Dizzy is during this time. It actually surprised me the first time because he does love to play, but I hadn't seen that high of drive in him before. When I saw this, it really made me realize how much he was storing up. It was a lightbulb moment for me. I let him win, and then 'chase' him for the toy. This usually elicits zoomies almost instantly and we chase, run, tug, fetch (well the husky version of chase and pounce) until he decides that he wants to do some sniffing. The rest of the time I allow him to lead and pursue whatever his nose wants, pee wherever, chase birds and squirrels and incorporate playing with him whenever he will engage. When he's done, I ask him to sit, and switch back to his collar.

Adding the free play has made the biggest difference of everything. I no longer feel like he needs more exercise than I can give him. I was doing 3+ hours a day, and he would still be on edge after we got back from a walk. Now, after 30-45 minutes in this format he needs a nap. He also follows me around the house with this big dopey grin on his face all the time and gives me the googly eyes. So far, mission accomplished. I'll update if/when there are any changes, either positive or negative. It has been really quite amazing to me to watch how his brain is developing and maturing. Last week I was ready to kill his teenage self, and this week it's my favorite phase so far lol. Progress.

Thats awesome Jen! All of that makes complete sense. You are going to think I'm crazy for saying this but its kind of awesome how often you see dogs while walking him. It really gives you a lot of time to practice and correct the problem. Where I live we rarely ever see dogs while walking (its just not a dog friendly area, which is annoying) and its really hard to practice and make conscious efforts for them to learn to ignore. Nikolai was a lot like Dizzy with the play growling, and stalking which made Siku then pick it up. So now I've got two crazy dogs with this problem, and its very hard to correct cause we have no where that has high distractions. I am going to take all of your advice though for sure and see if we can't make the progress that Dizzy has.

Isn't it just crazy, how with these dogs you change one or two things and it makes a world of difference? I'm glad that your walks are becoming more enjoyable.

It is awesome to see their brains mature I'm glad you found an outlet for him. Sometimes I wish they could speak English so they can say "play tug of war and chase with me and I'll chill out" it would be so much easier!

We learned "look" in the puppy class we took. I need to reinforce this because Mishka gets SO excited when he sees another dog. He's likely to pull me down the street. It definitely is a really good command though to get them to focus on you.

I enjoyed reading this. I think I need to incorporate some of this into my own training. Though he hasn't been doing this on walks. He's now doing this when I get home from work and he's been let out by the hubby. -_-

Erica, drive down to nyc for a few days and you'll have all the distraction you could ever want! I do try and look at it that way, but sometimes I get really annoyed by it, especially when some annoying tiny, fluffy dog is going nuts bouncing around and barking at the end of its leash. I think as long as I stay consistent, Diz will eventually be able to handle that, but at the moment, he just gets so excited by it. It really annoys me that people think they don't have to train their dog just because it's small.

I hope some of these things can help you with your boys. Check out naturaldogblog.com. It kinda got my wheels turning about what I was doing to create these problems. They have an article about tug and how it helps release built up prey drive.

Eddycaaa, that would be nice, but I hate to hear what he'd have to say when I ask him to sit before we go out the door and he talks back lol.

simplify wrote:

We learned "look" in the puppy class we took. I need to reinforce this because Mishka gets SO excited when he sees another dog. He's likely to pull me down the street. It definitely is a really good command though to get them to focus on you.

I enjoyed reading this. I think I need to incorporate some of this into my own training. Though he hasn't been doing this on walks. He's now doing this when I get home from work and he's been let out by the hubby. -_-

Look is great, but wasn't working for all situations for Dizzy so I had to add the other aspects, including the leash corrections. When he was fixated, I could have hit him on his nose with a newspaper or dangled steak in front of his nose, and he wouldn't have flicked an ear. I have to correct before he gets in the zone and then use the commands to redirect.

Maybe when you get home you could have a tug toy ready to engage him, so when he goes into zoomie attack mode, you can start a high energy game of tug.

Here is the tug article I was talking about:

http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/07/how-to-play-tug-of-war-with-your-dog-and-have-the-happiest-dog-on-the-block/