Just came across this on Yahoo.

http://shine.yahoo.com/pets/10-smartest-dog-breeds-160500214.html

A distinct theme: Work.

I take serious issue with #4, we had one when I was young. That thing had an IQ lower than mud.

Kelly, I agree there. I'm not so sure about Labs and Goldens. I guess it comes from being a Husky lover, but I do not equate "eager to please" to intelligent. Example: my family has Brittany Spaniels. Super loving, eager to please, and trainable. But I would not say that they are smart because of that.

Kellyb wrote:

I take serious issue with #4, we had one when I was young. That thing had an IQ lower than mud.

I too had a Beagle. She learned alright but I wouldn't say she was all that smart. The male that I had and the three that my in-laws currently have fit your statement 100%.

I found it interesting that there was no stated measure of intelligence, but rather just an association of Function with intelligence. On some level you could assume too much specific Functionality equates a lack of versatility and adaptability, which could be argued to be the opposite of intelligence.

Perhaps this should be a top ten list of most Useful or Functional breeds??

I had just finished reading this and thought about posting. I definitely agree about the work ≠ intelligence aspect.

I have met so many labs that are as dumb as a box of rocks. They are great work dogs, but smart...not so much. Though I'm sure there are some, just like with any breed, who have a bit more brain power than others.

seattlesibe wrote:

I found it interesting that there was no stated measure of intelligence, but rather just an association of Function with intelligence.  On some level you could assume too much specific Functionality equates a lack of versatility and adaptability, which could be argued to be the opposite of intelligence.

That's a really good point Jeff.

I have known one smart golden. The rest have been sweet, willing to do whatever (if they could only figure it out), but not so bright. The smart one I knew was from hunting stalk, and he was pretty intelligent. When I was about 9, I taught him to 'get the paper,' which meant that he had to run down to the paperbox by the street under the mailbox, and stick his head in and grab it. Of course, after that, we'd always have a stack of papers by our back door every morning.  If one is good, 12 must be better right?  I was surprised to see Newfies on the list, but that's just ignorance on my part. I see a big furry, slobbery dog and I immediately think it won't be smart (except for great Pyrenees, very smart dogs), but I'm pretty sure lung capacity has nothing to do with intelligence.

Just out of curiosity I did some research and this was in the first paragraph in Dog Intelligence on Wikipedia:

"One specific difficulty is confusing a breed's genetic characteristics and a dog's obedience training with intelligence."

This is what crossed my mind with the Top Ten List, confusing function with intelligence.  It'd be like saying a pride of lions is intelligent because of how they hunt gazelle, when in fact it's the conjunction of design and instincts allowing them to do so.  

I was on the bus all day today alone and thinking about this.  I found myself continually saying something to the effect of "I just don't buy into the idea that dogs are all that intelligent."  Granted, this has nothing to do with your dog or my dog or that one Border Collie we all know.  As a species, if you take away the two primary reasons why dogs do anything at all--instincts or rewards--I just don't see a whole lot left to justify intelligence.  Even with things that Huskies are notorious for like climbing fences or opening door latches, this can be shown to be pure instinct/drive kicking or just imitations.   There is no deliberate connections of points and possibilities and sequences in advance, it's just action.  

But then it hit me that given the type of intelligence that humans and some apes, for example, have, to compare dogs to that is ridiculous.  THAT type of intelligence is clearly not found in dogs, i.e. abstractions and logic and complex problem solving and pure rationality.  

I think whatever level of intelligence we assign to a species has to be relative to that species' particular situation and make-up.  I don't personally buy into cultural relativism for determining whether or not something is right or wrong in the human world, but I do think that we shouldn't compare the specific level of something like intelligence in one species to another.

So asking whether or not a Husky is more intelligent than a Bulldog is very different from asking Are Dogs Intelligent or Are Dogs More or Less Intelligent Than Cats.  

Intelligence, after all, is not a thing that can be objectively measured but a concept that we have named and created and defined.  This gets very, very messy and problematic when we try to apply this concept to non-humans using human parameters and standards.  

Ok, chest cleared

I love my lab, but he is the lowest intelligent animal in my house next to my snake.  There is a big difference between him and my other 2 dogs.  Loki seems smarter then my shepherd mix (thinking she is shepherd/border collie mix), but she is 10 times more biddable which makes sense with the breeds that likely are her mix.  Loki may edge out my cats over time in terms of what I think of with intelligence.  My bengal cat is probably still the queen of intelligence in my house.

BTW - I think bengals have to be high on the cat intelligence list. They are way smarter then domestic short hair cats. Similar to huskies they have a higher drive and energy too so it is very evident.

I think 'trainability' is a combination of capacity to learn (i.e. intelligence) and desire to please, so it's not a good measure of intelligence. Luci, for example has a decent capacity to learn, but almost zero desire to please. So some might think she's dumb as a rock, but really she just doesn't care if her actions make me happy or frustrated. I've had dogs just the opposite - just don't 'get it', can't understand (or remember) two part commands, but try so hard (bless their hearts lol) Most breeds people consider 'smart' have both.

I was talking to a lady about huskies in the dog park the other day, and she asked me if they are smart, and easy to train. I laughed and said they are super easy to train (as in they can figure out what you are asking very quickly) and smart enough to know they have a choice of listening to you or not, and they know they'll have a warm place to sleep and food to eat either way.

Yeah, they do make you wonder about their mental capacity. you can almost see their brains working sometime, ha especially the teens, and when they talk you have to wonder what "thoughts" are behind those vocalizations.

One way or the other, they're definitely not boring.

I have had personal experience with most of the breeds on this list (I've either owned them, or family or close friends have) and I think the list is somewhat accurate. I think the problem with breeds like labs and goldens (my dad has had both, his first golden was very intelligent & from hunting stock, his most recent lab was also from hunting stock but pretty dumb) is that they are a family favorite so they are being bred without consideration of passing on good qualities. So many backyard breeders are mass producing these dogs because they sell. In my opinion, I think this is a factor in why you get such an array of intelligence levels in a single breed. I've seen many of these top 10 dogs on the list in a pet shop at a mall by house and it makes me sick that people buy from them (but of course, that's another topic entirely!) but I know those pups weren't bred with consideration of passing on traits of intelligence, trainability, or even health.

That's a really excellent point Chase/Caitlyn. It really speaks to what Jen (wpskier) and I have discussed on here on a few occasions: the ethics involved in owning life pure dogs as pets.

As indicated by this article linked above so much of what we think of in terms of dog intelligence actually pertains to function, or how well can use them for something. So we say a "smart" or "intelligent" dog is one who is good at something.

Pure bred dogs, in most cases, have traditionally had a purpose or specific use that is rapidly more and more becoming irrelevant to dogs of these breeds today. Think about it: how many Huskies these days pull sleds, or pull anything really??

If there were only 10 alive, how many would anyone guess??

This creates a problem that we Husky owners know all too well. We have to deal with characteristics of these dogs that are the byproduct of the breed's nature or function being understimulated or their needs being unmet. Thankfully, many of us on here are educated and caring enough about the breed to make a.concerted effort to meet our Huskies' needs AS HUSKIES, not just as dogs. But we are the exceptions, not the rule....sadly.

Your point ties this in wonderfully. When we think of dogs of a.breed being unintelligent or dumbed down, is this really just a way of saying that this dog's breed specific function or purpose is unused, understimulated, or even rendered irrelevant??

Very interesting and provocative question.

My lab was likely a puppymill puppy. He is huge (very tall in comparison to breed standard), so my assumption is they bred for size. Maybe this is why he comes off as not so smart to me in comparison to my other dogs.

When I try to pinpoint exactly what I mean when I talk about how dumb Miles (the golden) was, I honestly have a hard time describing it logically. It's not like he wouldn't come in out of the rain, or something. I think mostly it was the dopey look he would give me when I was trying to teach him something and he couldn't figure out what I wanted. Also there was a rather amusing incident of him wearing the cone of shame, he literally froze every time he bumped into something, and I'd have to help him back out of corners. In comparison, Tasha could learn anything in 15 min or less and then get bored. I taught her so many tricks that I would forget them and she would randomly pop them out every once in a while.

I've been thinking on this subject the last couple days and something occurred to me. Why do we think dogs like labs and goldens aren't as smart as huskies? Huskies are active and learn quickly, while labs/goldens are obedient and want to please. An owner came to the vet with her chocolate and was talking about how her hubby takes the two dogs hunting. Both are labs. The male (chocolate) only retrieves, while the female will point and is a lot faster than him. But she said that you can see the wheels turning in his mind as he tries to figure out the quickest route to get to the kill and bring it back. She will just go until she gets to it. She brings back more than he does, but my guess would be that what he does bring back he does so with the least amount of work. Now that sounds like "working smarter not harder" to me. Just a food for thought.

I get what you're saying Roxy. I personally think that this is another example of "what do we mean when we say a dog is intelligent?" Labs and goldens who once were bred with a purpose are rarely used for that now since they are among the most popular fsmily pets. Maybe it's just the ones I've met, but I've never seen a lab or retriever used for those purposes so have not seen that instinct kick in. Whereas people who have herding breeds or other working dogs usually are involved in activities to play on those instincts. I hope that maked sense, my migraine medicine is making everything a little fuzzy lol

Cortnie, I understood you! I think a lot of the "lazy" dogs are just understimulated because they aren't used for their original purpose (rotties were once herding dogs, go figure!) Just because a dog doesn't work as hard as another, doesn't mean its not just as smart. I've also noticed a lot of labs with those dopey eyes (mine included lol) but we can't judge a book by its cover!!

haha good! exactly, every dog was bred to do something, but most never get the chance or have lazy owners who don't do things with them. BTW, where are more pics of the pup!!!??? lol

Haha uh oh I got busted!!! I will post new pix today I promise!!!

Now my dad did a lot of research before he got his lab and he got a lab because I guess once they weren't used for hunting anymore they were bred to be family pets (that's the info he found anyways, I didn't really look into it.) But we all know there is more to being a family pet than just laying around the house. I'm really looking forward to hiking with both girls together.

I don't think all goldens are dumb, our family pet growing up was very smart, but he was from a long line of hunting stalk. The not so bright golden I was referring to was essentially a byb dog. I think all breeds have a range of intelligence. Roxy, I think you're right, those eyes can fool you.